Wiring again...

[ztevie]

I have asked a similar question before, but I have a diffferent approach this time.
OK, so I have 2 humbuckers in a guitar.
2 volumes, 1 volume for each pickup, no tone.
I will use two pushpull-pots, one for each volume.
I will use a 3-way switch, the DiMarzio EP1111, that's a 4pdt on-on-on with 12 lugs.

Position 1: Bridge humbucker in series (parallel when volume pulled)
Position 2: One coil from bridge + one coil from neck in Parallel (or maybe series), this should happen no matter if the volumes are pushed or pulled.
Position 3: Neck humbucker in series (parallel when volume pulled)


Can this be done? I understand it would be impossible with a normal 3-way, but hope the 4pdt will give me possibility to do this...
It feels like I need to have access to all 4 wires in both the pushpulls AND the switch to do this, but...?

I searched allover the big www, and I've found schematics for the pushpulls of course, and also schematics for the 4pdt to choose one coil from each pup.
But I haven't found how to combine the two...
Impossible maybe?

EDIT: I'm thinking if I could send the pup wires to the switch first, and then on to the pushpulls, instead of the normal procedure to let the switch be the last station before going to the jack. Also, I wouldn't mind using only one pot as volume, and let the other pot just work as a push-pull... Confusing!

Here's the schematic for the pushpulls without the special 3way:

Here's the schematic link for the one coil from each pup in parallel thing:
http://www.dimarzio.com//media/diagrams/D.pdf

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

Thanks Hermetic!!

I don't understand how it will work, I'm not clever enough, but I take your word for it!:approve:

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

No need to be sorry... I thought that it seems strange that a normal 3-way could "know" that it should split in the middle position...
I'll try to get a schematic together. I'll post it later and maybe you could have a quick look to see ig I'm on the right way?

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

OK, have been studying those **** switches upand down, in and out,,,
I don't think this is doable even with a 4dpt...

I've been looking at Hermeticos excellent pic of how a 4pdt switch work, this one:

What I see here is really two on-on-on switches, which at first seemed nice since I will use 2 pups. What I thought about is sending the wires to the switch before they go to the pushpulls, but I can't even get this far...
So if I send all 4 wires from one pickup to the "half" 4pdt, I would like to have a on-on-on that would be:
pos 1: All 4 wires separate, and then send them on to the pushpull for choice of series or parallel.
middle pos: Coil cut.
pos 3: OFF

pos1 is possible, I can get them all separate.
pos2, middle is not possible if pos1 also should work. I cant get the 2 middle wires to ground, and still have all 4 wires separate in position 1. I need to connect two lugs to do middle pos right, and then pos1 fails...
pos3 is also possible no problem...

It's the pos1 and middle that just can't be done, well not with the vodka-soaked mind I possess anyway... And I haven't even gotten to the part where the middle pos should override the pushpullsetting..?
I'm no expert here, so maybe someone(Herm?) can tell me if I'm thinking wrong when I'm assuming I need all 4 wires separate at the switch before anything else happens..?
Maybe I'm just too narrow here when thinking of these as 2 on-on-on, it could be wired more complex than that, but...
Sorry I haven't any drawings to show, there's just nothing to show for since I really didn't get anywhere.

Soon I'll give up and use 1 humbucker with a on and off switch and that's it!:eyecrazy:

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

OK, so I've been doing a schecmatic that, in my theory, should work...
THis is only half, that is one humbucker, but it should be simple enough to transfer this wiring to the other pushpull and other half of the 4pdt, but in the oppposite way so to speak?
In theory I see this:

PP pushed, position1 of 4pdt: Black -> PLUS, White & Red, Green -> GROUND (series)
PP pushed, position2 of 4pdt: Black -> PLUS, White & Red & Green -> GROUND (split)
PP pushed, position3 of 4pdt: Black & White & Red & Green -> GROUND (off)

PP pulled, position1 of 4pdt: Black & Red -> PLUS, White & Green -> GROUND (parallel)
PP pulled, position2 of 4pdt: Black & Red -> PLUS, White & Green -> GROUND (parallel)
PP pulled, position3 of 4pdt: Black & White & Red & Green -> GROUND (off)

I didnit get it quite as I planned, since I wanted the 4pdt switch to override the pushpull-settings, but there are advantages of having it the other way around maybe? Anyway, I'll get my series/parallel from the pushpull, and I'll get the split in middle position of switch...

Now is the million dollar question: Is this correct or will I make a fool out of myself once again? :banghead:
I took a photo of my drawing on paper, not very clean, but hopefully enough to see how I'm thinking? It's big as a elephants ass, but I hope you have a browser that scale pics down, or right click and View Image should do the trick?

 

[tmmblues]

Re: Wiring again...

Not sure if they are made but in theory a stacked pot could also have a push-pull feature to achieve the coil split and series/parallel. If anyone knows where to get them or has an idea of how to make them please let me know. I've only worked with this type of wiring with four pots but have a two pot guitar that has stacked pots that would be ideal for the coil split and series/parallel wiring.

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

Yes, this is not what you planned but, the wiring is correct. It should work.
In the pull/push you have the serial/parallel option for one humbucker and, if series was selected, you can then decide to remain in series or to split or to shut off the pickup.
The parallel mode overwrites de 4PDT switch for all positions except for 3 (off).
Nice job.

Thanks! And thank you for helping me getting there... THe key was obviously to not have all 4 wires in the 4pdt, to save some options there...
Now I only need to set up the other bucker, and get the splitted middle position to work as it should.
tmmblues: Sorry, I can't help you with that, but someone here ought to know?

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

Aaahh, I spent days working on this diagram, and finally succeded to make the middle position override the pushpulls.
THen I found a diagram that let me do what I want, and more... I have to sacrifice 1volume, so I will have 1 volume, 1 4pdt and a 3way switch... No problem for me, Im ok with 1 volume.
In this diagram I will use the 4pdt as 2 separate on-on-on, and a pushpull in the volume as series/parallel selector. Of course I will only be able to choose series, parallel or split and don't mix them, but it's still more options than I had before...

 

[Reload in 5]

Re: Wiring again...

You can do this with the 4dpt and a single push pull
push pull down
1 - bridge series
2 - 1 coil from each series
3 - neck series
push pull up
1 - bridge single
2 - 1 coil from each parallel
3 - neck single

If you are interested I can post schematic.

 

[Reload in 5]

Re: Wiring again...

Aaahh, I spent days working on this diagram, and finally succeded to make the middle position override the pushpulls.
THen I found a diagram that let me do what I want, and more... I have to sacrifice 1volume, so I will have 1 volume, 1 4pdt and a 3way switch... No problem for me, Im ok with 1 volume.
In this diagram I will use the 4pdt as 2 separate on-on-on, and a pushpull in the volume as series/parallel selector. Of course I will only be able to choose series, parallel or split and don't mix them, but it's still more options than I had before...

Seems like a waste to me. I dont see having both in parallel and then parallel to each other as being very useful (unless they are really high output buckers). Too low output. I also dont see having both in series and then in series with each other as being useful either (unless they are low output buckers) too much mush. And I have to be reading something wrong, cause it seems to me that if SW3 is in the down position (both pickups in series) then pos 3 on the pickup selector wouldnt have any output.

And I just really didnt like the coils in parallel on a single bucker. a single coil on each just sounds better (to me)
So that would only leave 7 usable posistions for me. And I can get 6 of those with a single 4pdt and a single push pull. Could also get 6 with a regular 3 way and a single push pull (you would get both pickups, each in series then in parallel with each other and with the 4pdt I can get a single coil from each in series instead)

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

I kinda like the parallel tone, I prefer it over splitted coils alone...
The best tone I've gotten when splitting was a very twangy stratlike tone in a Ibanez RG where I have one coil from a Paf Pro in parallel with a Bareknuckle singlecoil.

And I have to be reading something wrong, cause it seems to me that if SW3 is in the down position (both pickups in series) then pos 3 on the pickup selector wouldnt have any output.

Really? THat sucks... I'm too tired after my efforts to create a diagram to check it myself, I just have to stay away from schematics a few hours...:eyecrazy:
If that's the case I'll need to find something else, I won't have any quiet positions...

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

Just use the second "serializer" wiring on my blog, and this problem will disapear.

OK, thanks! Will try to get that right into the system...:scratchch
I'm mostly interested in bridge series/parallel, neck series/parallel and one coil from each pup together as a bucker, but it doesn't hurt to have a few extra options...
Since I don't mind using only one volume, I've played with the thought of using two 4pdt and one pushpull. I guess I'd have endless possibilities with that combo. However I feel I'm a bit over my head if I should try to configure something from that.

I found I had a problem with my original idea above. Even though I found a way to override the pushpullsettings with the middle position of the 4pdt, I used up too many lugs, so I didn't have a way to send the hots to the jack(no pickup selector switch) without shorting everything at the jack in position 1 and 2(bridge, neck alone).
Of course there are ways to do that, but I'm not experienced enough to think of how. I'm thinking too simple, or maybe too difficult? : private:

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Wiring again...

I have to be reading something wrong, cause it seems to me that if SW3 is in the down position (both pickups in series) then pos 3 on the pickup selector wouldnt have any output.

This is, in fact, entirely normal. If you divert the output of one pickup so as to connect it to the (normally) ground wire of a second pickup in order to form a series connection between the two pickups, there is no longer a signal path to the selector switch.

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

This is, in fact, entirely normal. If you divert the output of one pickup so as to connect it to the (normally) ground wire of a second pickup in order to form a series connection between the two pickups, there is no longer a signal path to the selector switch.

For me this is not an option. Because I will use a 4pdt and have each half of that acts as one on-on-on, I will always have both pups in series, or parallel, or split. So this means, if I understand correct, I can never get the neckpup in series all alone...
But Hermetico had some solution to that it seems?

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

Look at here: http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com/2009/03/diy-guitar-electronics-for-guitarists-v.html

"serializer switches" paragraph.
The second way of doing the serial switch will OVERWRITE every position on the 3-way with both pickups in series so, no blackouts there.

That means that, once you select pickups in series, you will got it in any position of the 3-way. Think on it as a kind of instant booster.

Oh.... But since I use a 4pdt, which can be thought of as kind of two on-on-on but only one switch, I can not get any pickup alone in series? Since both these on-on-on must follow each other through positions 1-3.
I can not choose to for example have neck pup split and bridge pup in series...
If you know what I mean?

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

I am talking about having separate two DPDT on/on/on switches to select: coils in parallel / split coil / humbucker for each pickup AND
another DPDT on/on or pull/push to put both pickups in series/parallel.
That means that you can always select whatever combo for each pickup and decide later if you want to run them alone or together (in parallel mode) or together in series (for each position of the 3-way).

Of course... This would be a perfect combo of tonechoices.
But this also require a pickup selector switch. In this guitar I could put 2 separate on-on-on with one volume pushpull, but then I haven't room for anything else, and I'm not too eager to drill anything in this one.
I could let one half of a 4dpt act as pickup selector but then that selector has to be followed by the choice series/parallel/split on the other half of that 4pdt. Thus I could never get series alone on one of the pickups. I think?
Sorry if I'm messing things up here, I am a novice, so bare with me...

I have a schematic that will give me the options I want, I will post later for confirmation.
Nothing fancy, but it'll do what I need...:approve:

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

I am just lost at this moment. No pickups selector?
What's exactly your guitar's layout and what do you want?

Right now there's 2 humbuckers, 2 volumes and one 3-way switch.
If I were to put in 2 on-on-on I'm out of holes, since I need to keep one volume...

I have everything set for what I need, which is:

Bridge series
coil split from each pup in parallel
Neck series

Bridge parallel
Bridge parallel (parallel with) neck parallel
Neck parallel

This I have a schematic for, no problem, I can even do this with one pushpull and one 4pdt, with half of the 4pdt acting as selector...
But it would sure be nice to have all the options you talk of, to choose series/parallel/split for each pup, and then choose series/parallel for the middle position in any combination...

But even with 2 4pdt and one pushpull as I wrote above it's not doable. I think not, anyway...

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

OK, late at the last day of the year, I'd like to post a wiring diagram I did...
I'd be happy if someone could check it, and maybe suggest some improvments?

First I'd like to say, I haven't included any grounding of the components itself, and I haven't taking into account any swap of wires considering magnet polarity or winding direction... It's a very basic diagram, and is based on Seymour Duncan color codes...

2 humbuckers, one volume with pushpull, one 4pdt switch, and a jack, that's it... I have no normal 3way pickup selector switch here.
The pushpull switch between series and parallel for both humbuckers.
The first half of the 4pdt basically sets middle wire/wires to ground, thus giving extra options.
The second half of the 4pdt works as a pickup selector switch: Bridge, Both or Neck.

It will work as this if I am correct?

PP Pushed
Pickup selector(2nd half of 4pdt):
Position1: Bridge series
Position2: Bridge split (in parallel with) Neck split
Position3: Neck series

PP Pulled
Pickup selector(2nd half of 4pdt):
Position1: Bridge parallel
Position2: Bridge parallel (in parallel with) Neck parallel
Position3: Neck parallel

The pushpull and 4pdt is assumed to work as this (DPDT on/on, 4PDT on/on/on type 2):

And here's my diagram:

Does anyone know if I with one more pushpull can choose series and parallel in the middle position only? I tried to work it out but can not...:banghead:
That way I could also have:
bridge split (in series with) neck split
bridge parallel (in series with) neck parallel

Or, anyone have any idea what could be done with an extra 4pdt?? That could give some possibilities.

 

[ztevie]

Re: Wiring again...

I am still lost.
You can use one pull/push to select series/parallel for EACH pickup and then, the 4PDT on/on/on (or any 2PDT on/on/on) to do the pickups selection (and force series in middle position).

Just be sure to obtain two wires from each serializer (negative and positive), don't ground before the pickups selector.

I will look at your serializer more careful, I threw an eye at it before but didnt quite understand nr 2 there, and how to combine 2 pickups and what was up with the lower and upper hot...
But I'll try to break it down and analyze it better to see what happen..
THanks Hermetico, you're a big help for a newbie as myself!

 

[Reload in 5]

Re: Wiring again...

It will work as this if I am correct?

PP Pushed
Pickup selector(2nd half of 4pdt):
Position1: Bridge series
Position2: Bridge split (in parallel with) Neck split
Position3: Neck series

PP Pulled
Pickup selector(2nd half of 4pdt):
Position1: Bridge parallel
Position2: Bridge parallel (in parallel with) Neck parallel
Position3: Neck parallel

No, this gives you the first set
series
splits par
series

but the other option is
split
par in par
split