Wiring question - is this even possible?

[Sage]

I recently picked up some strat parts from Warmoth and I'm putting the guitar together. It's a normal strat with three single coil pickups, but they will be wired in a nonstandard fashion. I plan to purchase a "super switch" and at least one push/pull pot. I know that this will afford me a lot of flexibility but I'm not sure it's enough to pull off what I want to do.

My goal is to get the switch to select the pickups as follows:
Position 1: Neck + Bridge
Position 2: Middle + Bridge
Position 3: Neck + Middle + Bridge
Position 4: Neck + Middle
Position 5: Neck

On top of that, I would like to use the push/pull pot to change those settings. The idea would be that when I pull the knob out, it makes the pickups operate like they would on a normal strat with a normal 5-way switch:
Position 1: Bridge
Position 2: Middle + Bridge
Position 3: Middle
Position 4: Neck + Middle
Position 5: Neck

Is this even possible? That's all I really need to know -- I can figure out how to do it myself, and if not, there's a local shop that can do it for me. But I would like to know if this setup is possible before I go off buying parts.

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

consider this, playing an important solo while recording live a solo that you needed to come out just as planned... then you look down at all this switching and realize you just blew it... you were not switched where you had planned... this happened to me so much that i ripped out all that Super switch and push pull stuff and went back to the keep it simple stupid wiring.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

I recently picked up some strat parts from Warmoth and I'm putting the guitar together. It's a normal strat with three single coil pickups, but they will be wired in a nonstandard fashion. I plan to purchase a "super switch" and at least one push/pull pot. I know that this will afford me a lot of flexibility but I'm not sure it's enough to pull off what I want to do.

My goal is to get the switch to select the pickups as follows:
Position 1: Neck + Bridge
Position 2: Middle + Bridge
Position 3: Neck + Middle + Bridge
Position 4: Neck + Middle
Position 5: Neck

On top of that, I would like to use the push/pull pot to change those settings. The idea would be that when I pull the knob out, it makes the pickups operate like they would on a normal strat with a normal 5-way switch:
Position 1: Bridge
Position 2: Middle + Bridge
Position 3: Middle
Position 4: Neck + Middle
Position 5: Neck

Is this even possible? That's all I really need to know -- I can figure out how to do it myself, and if not, there's a local shop that can do it for me. But I would like to know if this setup is possible before I go off buying parts.

You can do this with 5-way, 4-pole independent switch such as the ones available from Allparts or WD products. There is an OTAX switch use on some Yamahas i think that does the job very nicely.

Give me a day or so and i'll come up with some product numbers and a schematic for you. It should be a very easy circuit...

I don't think you need to worry about getting lost in the switch of your own gee-tar once you get used to it you'll know where you are OK.

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Yup. A Superswitch and push/pull would do it. Like this:

Artie

 

[Sage]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Wow, that was fast... thanks so much for the response, guys! And Artie, that schematic is great, thanks!

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Quick update: The first diagram I posted will work fine, but it was a bit more complicated than need be. You only need one side of the push/pull. I modded the drawing to show the change.

Unfortunately, I couldn't post this info at work. Either the forum software is different, or something at work is. I can't log-on at work anymore. :blackeye:

Artie

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Update 2: I just realized - you can do this same thing with only one half of a standard 5-way, and a push/pull switch. No need for the added expense of the Superswitch.

Gimme a minute, and I'll post the diagram.

Artie

(Same functionality - not exactly the same sequence.)

Note that the functionality is the same, but the sequence is slightly different. When you're in the neck-only, or bridge-only position, pulling the switch adds the other. When you're in the middle position, pulling the switch adds the neck and bridge. Its not quite the same, but saves you a few sheckles on a Superswitch.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Update 2: I just realized - you can do this same thing with only one half of a standard 5-way, and a push/pull switch. No need for the added expense of the Superswitch.
Note that the functionality is the same, but the sequence is slightly different. When you're in the neck-only, or bridge-only position, pulling the switch adds the other. When you're in the middle position, pulling the switch adds the neck and bridge. Its not quite the same, but saves you a few sheckles on a Superswitch.

Your right Artie that's the simplest solution but the first diagram you posted is overcomplicated. This is simpler and allows you to choose how the tone controls are distributed.

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Thats an interesting approach. I like it, but wouldn't you need to add this blue line to maintain the functions that he wants?

I do like the idea of keeping one quadrant free for tone control purposes. You could also switch in different caps.

Artie

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Yes actually, i think you're right. i missed the fact that he wants neck and middle in position 1. I think your mod would do it which of course makes it no less complicated than your original one...

Oeuf sur le visage, anyone!

*blushes*

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

But still . . . I like your idea of keeping one quadrant "free". It keeps other options open.

 

[Sage]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Octavedoctor, ArtieToo... you guys are princes among men. I didn't realize there would be so many options. That diagram using a regular switch is cool, but I do want to preserve the specific switch order I outlined, so I think I like that last option best -- being able to move the tone controls around sounds peachy.

Just one little nit to pick:

Yes actually, i think you're right. i missed the fact that he wants neck and middle in position 1. I think your mod would do it

Actually, it's neck and bridge in position 1. If you look closely, there are only two differences when you push in the push/pull pot:
Position 1, normally just the bridge, is instead the bridge and the neck together.
Position 3, normally just the middle, is instead all three pickups.
Aside from that, it's your standard Strat pickup selector switch. I think that last diagram does this, right? I'm not an expert on wiring, but it does look logical to me.

One more question: You guys raised the subject of using that last quadrant to redistribute the tone controls. I'd love to have the second tone control attached to the bridge pickup in positions 1 and 2, but connected to the middle pickup (like on a normal Strat) in positions 3 and 4. Position 5 doesn't matter, since that's always just the neck pickup, which already has a tone control. I'd like for that setup to be the same regardless of the position of the push/pull pot. Is that possible?

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

One more question: You guys raised the subject of using that last quadrant to redistribute the tone controls. I'd love to have the second tone control attached to the bridge pickup in positions 1 and 2, but connected to the middle pickup (like on a normal Strat) in positions 3 and 4. Position 5 doesn't matter, since that's always just the neck pickup, which already has a tone control. I'd like for that setup to be the same regardless of the position of the push/pull pot. Is that possible?

Two parts here:

1. The best diagram to use is octavedoctor's, but use the version where I added the blue lines. Also, orient that switch so that the "left" side in that diagram is the top. That is, the left is selected when pulled.

2. This one is a little more difficult to explain. You can't have a pickup "selected", and not have it controlled by the tone control. A tone control affects a "connection", not a pickup. For example: in #3, with the pp pulled, you'll have all three pups selected. Then tone control must control all three. The high frequencies from the neck and middle pups won't know that they aren't supposed to run down the tone control.

So, your options are to divide the two tone controls between the 5 positions - not the 3 pups. So you could have one on #1 and #2, and the other on #3 - #5, or one on #1, and one on #2 - #4, with none on #5. That kind of thing.

Does that make sense?

Artie

(If it was me - I'd use 1 master volume and 1 master tone.)

 

[Sage]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

2. This one is a little more difficult to explain. You can't have a pickup "selected", and not have it controlled by the tone control. A tone control affects a "connection", not a pickup. For example: in #3, with the pp pulled, you'll have all three pups selected. Then tone control must control all three. The high frequencies from the neck and middle pups won't know that they aren't supposed to run down the tone control.

So, your options are to divide the two tone controls between the 5 positions - not the 3 pups. So you could have one on #1 and #2, and the other on #3 - #5, or one on #1, and one on #2 - #4, with none on #5. That kind of thing.

Does that make sense?

Interesting. How does this differ from normal Strat wiring? I always thought the tone controls were associated with specific pickups; doesn't the first tone control always adjust the neck pickup and the second always (at least in stock configurations) on the middle pickup? Or is it that the first tone was always on position 5 and the second tone was always on position 3, and they still happened to work in positions 2 and 4?

And if that's the case, doesn't that mean that in position 4, each tone control affects both pickups, rather than one tone control for the neck and one for the middle?

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

A Strat has the tone controls connected to positions #1 and #3. Since those are neck and middle, we tend to call them that. But in reality, you'll have both tone controls active when in position #2, and the second tone control affects the bridge and middle when in #4. Thats why I was saying it's better to think in terms of "positions" rather than pups. Then again, my thinking doesn't always fall along conventional lines. :laugh2:

In your case, lets say you connected one tone control to #1, and the other to #2, #3, #4, and none on #5. When you had the PP pulled, you'ld have this:

1. N (1 tone control)
2. N & M (2 tone controls - both affecting both pups)
3. N, M, & B (2 tone controls affecting all three)
4. M & B (1 tone control)
5. B (no tone control)

See how it goes?

Artie

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

I tracked this down on the british RS components website

http://tinyurl.com/8zbxs

Featured here is a three pole, double throw switch which offers an extra set of contacts. This can be useful for some complicated switching options.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Just one little nit to pick:
Actually, it's neck and bridge in position 1.

Yeah sorry, my mistake again; I was just getting over food poisoning and an overnight duty with no sleep when i responded to this thread. Not firing on all cylinders yet...

I did mean bridge, I just typed middle. But Artietoo's mod does give you that config, as you can see...

 

[Sage]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

A Strat has the tone controls connected to positions #1 and #3. Since those are neck and middle, we tend to call them that. But in reality, you'll have both tone controls active when in position #2, and the second tone control affects the bridge and middle when in #4. Thats why I was saying it's better to think in terms of "positions" rather than pups. Then again, my thinking doesn't always fall along conventional lines.

Yes, but your "unconventional" thinking makes so much more sense.

So although you have both tone controls active when the neck+middle position is selected, they don't control a particular pickup? Each knob controls the overall sound in the same way, then, and I've just been too dumb to notice (I usually turn the tone knobs all the way up).

I was working totally backwards, btw -- I was describing the neck as position #5 and the bridge as position #1. I think that's how Fender labels them.

That in mind, it makes the most sense to set the tone controls as follows:

Position 1 (bridge): Tone control 2
Position 2 (middle+bridge): Tone control 2
Position 3 (middle): Tone control 2
Position 4 (neck+middle): Tone control 1 + Tone control 2
Position 5 (neck): Tone control 1

I may be pushing it, but it would be nice to have the push/pull pot also add Tone control 1 to positions 1 and 3 when it is pushed in (when position 1 is neck+bridge and position 3 is all three pickups). It seems unlikely that this would be possible, though.

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Thats not too difficult to do, but first, I need to clarify something. I overlooked something while explaining the tone control issue. What I said about them adding together only applies to a standard 5-way switch - not to a superswitch. Its the standard 5-way that shorts adjacent lugs together. A superswitch keeps them isolated.

So . . . having said that, it changes how we can do this, slightly.

First, lets mod octave's diagram, that has my mod, to this:

Note that we can run the blue jumper to a different spot, and keep the same functionality, yet save one side of the push/pull switch. With the tone controls connected like this, you have one for position #1, and the other for the other four positions. The two tone controls never mix.

Now, we can add the other half of the PP in two different ways:

In the first of those two, you connect A to A, B to B, etc. When the PP is in its "normal" position, the tone controls work as I described above. When you activate the PP, tone control 1 is substituted for tone control 2 in position #3. So you have: TC 1 in positions #1 and #3, and TC 2 in positions #2, #4, and #5.

Using the second diagram, when you activate the PP, you simply add both tone controls together in all five positions.

Have I lost you yet?

Artie

 

[Sage]

Re: Wiring question - is this even possible?

Thats not too difficult to do, but first, I need to clarify something. I overlooked something while explaining the tone control issue. What I said about them adding together only applies to a standard 5-way switch - not to a superswitch. Its the standard 5-way that shorts adjacent lugs together. A superswitch keeps them isolated.

I figured that was the case... but does that mean there's no way to make both controls active in any position without using the push/pull pot? From those last two diagrams, it looks like you can only distribute a single tone control to each position, and the PP simply bypasses this and activates both tone controls for ALL positions. Let me know if I'm on the right track here.

Suppose we left the PP out of the distribution of tone controls entirely, for the moment. Would it still be possible to have Tone Control 2 on positions 1, 2, 3, and 4, while Tone Control 1 is on positions 4 and 5? Obviously you can jumper positions 1, 2, and 3 together, and then jumper positions 4 and 5 together, in that lower left quadrant... and that would distribute a single tone control to each position accordingly, but I don't see any way to get both controls onto position 4, without using the PP.