Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

[Brett Valentine]

Mapping out how to wire a 2 humbucker 3 way selector switch with a master volume, master TBX tone control, Master Mids control.

Would it work Switch Middle lead to the TBX open lead
from TBX open lead to Volume open lead

from volume open lead to which ever lead is open on the Master Mids control? That hasn't come in the mail yet, but what I'm looking for is the general theory of theoretically wiring "2 master tone controls in series."

Thanks,
Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Got the answer. . . Just wire them parallel off of the volume pot. . .

Brett

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Cool. Glad you got it Brett, 'cause I didn't fully understand the question.

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Here's what I came up with.

The Torres Mid/tone control's instructions say to wire it to the jack's hot and ground lead.

Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Project's done. Ended up with a Jazz neck, Pearly Gates bridge. The TBX Tone control (0.047 mf Cap, 100k Ohm resistor) and the Torres Mid/Magic Tone control work nicely together. There is obviously some overlap, but they do complement each other. And the Torres control goes "no load" when the knob is pulled out and set to 10. The Mid control (knob pushed in) does make the mids warm (I guessing it de-emphasizes a little bit of the highs and lows since it is a passive circuit, but it sounds nice).

The Jazz n and Pearly Gates b complement each other nicely, and the Torres Mid control adds a bit of the character that I like in the Alnico 2 Pro neck, but the Jazz has a bit more stringiness in the top end so I'm not constantly changing the tone control to match the APH-1n and the PGb (as with my i21). Also, the mid control, even when set to "flat" at 5 smooths out the PG's top end. As you go past 6, the PG get's even more smooth until the mids really start to push.

Decided to take pictures a write up the process for each guitar that I customize so I can always get back up to speed when I have to work on it or modify it.

Here's a few if anyone's interested.
Didn't realize the Hamer SATQ's control cavity wasn't completely routed out. Had to use a couple of forstner bits and a chisel to make spaces for the mini toggles.

Made a pilot hole through to the top and used another forstner bit to make the hole for the toggle, no tear out. Also, had a Tone Pros System II bridge and tailpiece put int (bridge modified at a local shop to fit the large thumb screw holes).

Someone mentioned about making a cutout of the cavity and wiring u the controls on that. Tried it, made the job much quicker, easier, and neater. Replaced the stock switch with a Switchcraft.

For the tone controls, I wired a short lead from the volume pot and soldered the two tone controls to the lead wire and wrapped it with electrical tape to make future changes easier just in case I wasn't satisfied with the tonal results.
2 white wires w/electrical tape bottom left (hard to see)

Bought some solid core wire from Radio Shack. Attached long hot and ground leads to each control (followed the convention "black for ground, white for hot" instead of using all one wire color just clarity sake).

Transferring everything from the harness to the cavity took only a few minutes. Attached a long bare wire to the ground lead on the jack to act as a common ground wire instead of soldering everything to the tone pot. At this point, all that was left was connecting the hot lead to the jack and connecting up all the ground leads.

Wired up. Drilled a hole in the upper lip of the cavity and pushed the ground wire into it so that the bare wire would come in contact with the shielded back of the cover. The nice thing is that with the cover off, all I have to do is lift the bare ground wire up and out of the way to get at the controls.

Done.

 

[Artie]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Very nice job Brett.

And I'm so glad you replaced that cheapo selector switch. I can't believe that any manufacturer would put those into a guitar.

I bet she sounds great.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Wow, does that mid magic thing actually have an inductor coil on it? Makes sense I suppose.

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Thanks Artie. I'm so used to having the plan in my head that I do the "mad scientist" thing and just let the solder fly while working in the control cavity. First time I actually planned every move out before hand. I will probably do things that way from now on and save "seat of the pants" flying for repair jobs.

And it sounds great. It's amazing to hear the difference. Great dynamics, slightly warmer than the i21. Funny how the difference in wood mass (SATQ is lighter) and the Jazz comes very close in character to the i21 (noticeably heavier) and the APH-1. Stringiness going to the Jazz, those huge, punchy mids going to the APH-1.

That Torres gizmo really adds a pretty nice range of shades to the tone. Both pickups (humbuckers and all 4 single coils) find something nice there. Thinking of adding one to my Strat (Lil '59(b) needs some mid character).


Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

. . .wait-a-minute. . .hold the phone. I just ordered a Stellartone Tone Styler to try in place of the TBX control. I know it's a sickness, but I think its worth a shot.

Brett

 

[gripweed]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

. . .wait-a-minute. . .hold the phone. I just ordered a Stellartone Tone Styler to try in place of the TBX control. I know it's a sickness, but I think its worth a shot.

Brett

Lol! There are a lot of us out there who are very ill!

I've heard some very good things about the tone styler, I look forward to your input and observations.

The Jazz neck PG bridge is an unusual combination. Usually most prefer a2 in the neck and a5 in the bridge. Any particular reason you choose that combo?

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Well, the PG bridge is my favorite pickup. A lot of my O/D pedals these days tend to be tone neutral (read flat or transparent). The PG has that aggressive upper midrange that gives most of my O/D's and distortions the right amount of "bark." It's also very expressive dynamics wise.

The JB would be just a bit too bright and aggressive for my current purposes. I figured

Neckwise, the Alnico 2 Pro just knocked my socks off once I heard it. I wanted something like the APH-1 but with a little more air on the top end. On my Brian Moore, the warmth of the APH-1 and the brighter PG caused me to continuously have to adjust the master tone knob between the 2 pickups.

Spent a lot of time comparing the tracks for the Alnico 2 Pro neck, '59 neck, Pearly Gates neck, and the Jazz neck. Narrowed it down to either the APH-1 and the Jazz which had more stringiness to it but not as much in the mids.

I hadn't decided between the two yet, but all of the local stores and some of the "not so local" ones I frequent didn't have the Alnico 2 Pro in stock. Seemed like a perfect time to try the Jazz neck, and I figured the PG bridge would work as a warmer, slightly less powerful alternate to the JB, and for the most part, the combination works though I miss that big rich tone of the APH-1. The Jazz is no slouch at all, but you can hear how it would get the most out of a hollow body or semi hollow.


Decided on the Tone Styler because the TBX and Torres Mid/Tone switch were overlapping too much, and the 1 Meg section of the TBX was a little bit too subtle to hear. I was also using the TBX in a manner similar to the TOne Styler, just setting a color and adjusting everything from the Torres. At that point, the Tone Styler seemed like the logical decision.

Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Tonestyler hasn't arrived yet, but I've had the chance to mess with the TBX/Torres Mids/tone switch combination a bit. The Master TBX/ Master Mids control turns out to be a nice combination. What follows are my impressions with guitar in hand. Amp is clean and Fendery (okay, it's a Guitar port, but that's what's handy at the moment).

First of all, I replaced the 87k Ohm resistor with a 100k ohm, and even that small of a change seems to have helped the top end of the TBX. The TBX also has a 0.047 mf cap.



TBX:10/Torres:10 pulled out-tone control (tone is "no load") brightest clearest tone

Humbucker: Top end and mids pronounced, very clear. Picking with fingers give a very pronounced snap even in humbucker mode.

Single coil: Very clear, lots of stringiness. Bridge p/u can get almost too strident but not quite Fender ice pick range. Great country sound either coil.

TBX:2/Torres:10 pulled out-tone control (tone is "no load")[/B]

Nice dark tone, in fact the tone is useable along much more of its range. The 0.047 mf cap with the TBX on 3 gives a feeling of more "weight" to the tone. Both single coil and humbucker. I won't go into too much detail as these are basically the TBX tone control only when the TOrres in pulled out and on 10, but with the TBX on 10 and the Torres in tone mode is on 0, the rolloff point is at a higher position than the TBX with the darker cap. The TBX rolled off feels a little bit more bottom heavy. Too much rolled off and the top end begins to get attenuated too much and starts to disappear. The Torres in Tone mode and rolled off to 0 is a little bit more "honky" sounding but with the tops rolled off (different sound than the Torres in Mids on 10 and the TBX rolled off).

end of pt.1

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

pt.2
Now to the more interesting Mids control.


TBX:10/Torres:10 pushed in-Mids control (mids maxed out) very top end is attenuated a bit (Torres in tone mode but on 4-5?), but mids are at same level as "no load tone" levels. Gives the sense of a warm, pushed mids tone.

Humbucker: Neck subtle push to the mids. Difference in top end is slight but there if you really listen for it. Bridge humbucker gets a little "snarky" with the mids on 10 (works nicely with distortion, the more the better), but backing it off to about 8 gives a nice warm clean tone.

Single coil: Most noticeable changes to the sound with the Mids controil. Pulls out the air while leaving some stringiness but adds warmth, (a little closer to humbucker). I can imagine what it does to a Strat (going to pull off my bridge "spin-a-split" and install one of these so I'll have a similar setup to the Hamer). Neck pickup gets a little bit warmer (the Jazz gives subtle tones in bucker or single coil and the Torres works in a subtle manner on that pickup - I may add one to the Brian Moore as well to hear it with the APH-1.


TBX:10/Torres:0-2 pushed in-Mids control (mids greatly attenuated)[/B] Hollow tone leaves top end at same level throughout


Humbucker: At first listen, you feel that the tone just get's dark because the bottom end remains in the signal - untouched by the Mids control, but the top end really is still there also. With the tone at 0, too much of the mids are taken out and there isn't more than the very top end still in the signal. With the control set to about 2, the very high mids are added back in and you get a sense of humbucker "air" to the tone. You can really change the pickup's basic character with this one, but I have a feeling it really benefits from being paired with a pickup that already has a fair amount mids in the signal as opposed to a more scooped sounding pickup (the Torres is still a passive control so it won't add to what isn't already there).


Single coil:

Because there is more top end information in the single coil sound, you can really hear the difference between Mids on 10 to mids on 2-3. That scooped tone gives you that funky rhythm tone. Outer coils have a stringy scooped warm snap, middle position gives a sort of warm Tele sound. The inner coils give you a warm Strat-like set of tones.


TBX:2/Torres:10 pushed in-Mids control (mids maxed out) very top end rolled off very warm and punchy


Humbucker:

Neck bucker is warm but the mids are articulate and not muffled. Very nice jazz tone. Rolling back the mids darkens the tone progressively, makes it feel like it's gaining more bass. The bridge p/u is warm and just a little bit honky. Really works with some reverb and fingerstyle (a la Mark Knopfler). Both pickups together makes for some very mellow but clear chords!

Single coil:

Neck coils are warm and jazzy but clearer than humbucker. Nice and fat. TBX down to 1 and the bridge coils still have their character but all the icepick is pulled out. Clean amp pushed gives you great warm clean solos. Sounds nice with o/d as well. Also good with distortion. Get's you closer to humbucking.

Torres on 5 in either Mids or Tone mode yields a "neutral" sound with just a hint less top end when in Tone mode.

Both TBX and Tone/Mids on 5 gives a smooth tone closest to the original Hamer tone but with much more life than the stock Duncan Designed set (59-ish neck, JB-ish bridge).

Lot's of colors. You're fiddling with 2 knobs and a "push/pull" for tonal options, but once familiar with the controls/tones available you can get pretty quick at it.

Curious to see if the Stellartone Tonestyler can improve on things.

Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

One more piece of the puzzle. I am running the Kinman treble bleed mod on the volume control (500k Ohm pot). The result is that as I turn the volume down, the tone begins to get progressively brighter. The volume pot keeps its nice taper, and the tone gets very gradually brighter (actually it get's a little thinner as the bottom starts to come off).

I'd originally intended to work with capacitor and resistor values to get a neutral response (the cap and resistor values seem to be for single coils and a 250k ohm pot) but I really grew to like the subtle clearing up of the tone as the volume was rolled off. As you bring the volume back up, the tone gets warmer as if you're pushing the amp or your pedals harder.

It has worked out great live, very musical, and in combination with the TBX/Torres controls, it just adds another flavor to the mix.

Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Update.

I installed the Stellartone ToneStyler in place of the TBX control this evening. to give it a listen. First of all, the ToneStyler really does work. The first number of settings are subtle variations on attenuating just the top end of the signal. The lower medium range begins to attenuate more of the top end and upper mids, but still pretty subtle. The Lower quarter begins to really dig into the upper mids, giving you more of that "fixed wah" tone, and the last setting gives you the full "rolled off tone" sound. Setting #16 is true bypass.

Here's where it didn't work in the Hamer. Because of its mid emphasis, both the Jazz and PG, at lower tone settings, had a very pronounced "honk" to their tones. Not a fault of the Tone Styler. in fact, the Torres Mid control dialed that out nicely and gave a balanced dark tone that made the single coils sound very bassy.

The guitar has a darker tone in general (darker than my i21) that tends to "mellow out" the upper range of the pickups, which is not a bad sound at all. It just makes the upper range of the Tone Styler a little bit too subtle with my rig. I have a similar problem (to a lesser extent) with the TBX control. In single coil mode, you could hear the effects of the the TS a little better, making the tone gradually get a bit warmer, taking off the high end but leaving the mids intact (a pretty similar effect to the Torres Tone/Mid control though approached differently).

Also, because the volume control also works as the master coil split, I can't install the Volume/Tone stacked pot to temper the Tone Styler's effect.
The TBX control (100k ohm resistor, 0.047 µF cap) gets just as bright (judging by ear) as the Tone Styler, and the roll off is pretty gradual with a nice taper to the high end attenuation, and the darker cap puts the resonant spike at a lower frequency that just makes the tone sound bassier, and more useable for my purposes.

Final verdict: for the Hamer: PG(b)/Jazz combination, the TBX-Torres Tone/Mid control gives me a wider range of useful tones. The TS might be better able to replace the Torres as they overlap a little.


The Tone Styler seems like it needs a brighter guitar, but definitely a brighter p/u that (imo) is more balanced but definitely has less mid emphasis. I'll have to give it a try in my Strat. Also, my ES-335 might benefit from the TS/volume-tone stacked pot, especially for the bridge position which has a Jazz p/u installed.

Brett

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Latest mod.

Did you ever outsmart yourself into thinking you're hearing something when it turns out you really aren't? Turns out that the 100k Ohm resistor wasn't "gradually" bleeding out the capacitor, just cutting it off at "5."

Decided to try a TBX mod to cut some of the bass instead, so I tried the TBX mod that LJ King posted on this thread (3rd down):

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=71338

Went with a 0.0047µf cap. Found the taper of the bass cut to be abrupt somewhere between 5 & 6, no further response above 6, so it's closer to a bass cut switch (any ideas as to how to make the taper more gradual?).

Anyway, previously, when I rolled the mid switch down to 0, the sound had a bottom heavy sound as most of the mids were pulled out, leaving only the very high end which didn't always come through. Now, the ability to cut the bass leaves a very clear, stringy sound, thinner than the single coil sound, slightly hollow, but still humbucker.

With the Torres in "no load," the mod works the way it would if the TBX was the only tone control. Very nice. The bass cut isn't as pronounced, but it still has a pretty short taper. It really helps the pickups in coil cut mode. Pulling out that bottom end gives it a little bit more of a true single coil feel.

Brett

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Can I get the bullet point summary please?

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Can I get the bullet point summary please?

. . .of the whole thing? I haven't gotten there yet. At this point, its more of a progress report. I'll sum it up soon. Haven't had the opportunity to use it live yet.

 

[tone4days]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

excellent thread, brett ... thanks for sharing your findings

sounds like you are well on your way to being able to dial in exactly what you need at any given moment

keep us posted
cheers
t4d

 

[Brett Valentine]

Re: Wiring Question: MasterVolume -Master Tone -Master Mi?d Control

Thanks t4d.

For ratherdashing's sake, here's a quick summary

HAMER SATQ:
-Thin maple veneer, mahogany body (very light weight) darker tone.
-Tuners upgraded to Sperzel locking. Bridge and tailpiece upgraded to TOne Pros System II
-DPDT 500k Ohm Volume pot Kinman treble bleed circuit/ master coil cut switch
-dual reverse phase switches to get any one of all 4 individual coils
-SwitchCraft p/u selector

Jazz Pearly Gates (b):
-Actually a good combination. Jazz has more top end than the APH-1 which is my favorite neck p/u.
-both seem to share a similar characrter in the mids.
-Mids tend to be a bit more pronounced in the PG (less top end than on my i21).

TBX (0.047µƒ cap-treble roll off/0.0047µƒ cap-bass roll off):
-0.047µƒ cap rolls off more of the bass, pulling out the pronounced midrange.
-just added the 0.0047µƒ cap to roll the bass off when the control is pushed up past 5. Nice roll off, but very short taper.

-Tried the Stellartone Tone Styler in place of the TBX, but it wasn't a good fit for this guitar.

Torres Engineering Tone Control/Mid switch:
-Boosts or attenuates mids.
-Knob pulled, acts as a tone control with "no load" at 10.
-Can add warmth to clean tones, gives the Jazz neck a boost in the mids in a way that is similar to the mids on the APH-1 (@ a slightly different frequency)

Combination of the two tone controls goes from fat and warm to airy and stringy. Pulling out the mids to 0 (something I couldn't really use before) and boosting the TBX to 10 (cutting bass) gives humbucker more of a series/parallel kind of tone. In single coil mode, almost has an out of phase type tone. If one just added these 2 tone controls and the master coil cut push/pull pot, you'd still have a pretty wide range of tones.

Bullet points so far.

Still need to evaluate it live.
Brett