WTF is this on my Gibson Flying V ex-robot wiring?

[Wolfshead]

Not happy with the 500T in this guitar, thought I'd check the pot values. Found this weird little capacitor.
What is this thing? Can I remove it to make the 500T sound better (it sounds full and hot, just kinda fuzzy for my tastes)?
This is a 2008 Flying V that used to have the robot crap on it. Amazing guitar other than how the 500T sounds.

 

[beaubrummels]

I don't think that cap is doing anything. It looks like it's hooked between two grounds, but I can't really see what the other end is soldered to. Might have been part of a treble bleed at one point.

 

[Artie]

Peavey used to do this. It prevents bad "club wiring" from sending AC back into the guitar. But it's been too long ago for me to remember exactly how it's connected. But that's what it looks like.

 

[freefrog]

I agree with Artie: it's most likely a "safety cap" from ground to stop bar. My friend luthier mounted such things in his guitars too.

Tonally, it's not doing anything, like beaubrummels said.

And yes, a 500T effectively "sounds full and hot, just kinda fuzzy". Reasons: it's a high DCR/high inductance model with 3 ceramic mags...

Gibson tends to use 300k pots to tame it but it also makes it sound even fuller.

Pulling off the two lateral magnets and putting a single AlNiCo magnet in center position would calm it to some extent.



Now, let's share is a possible trick to make it less hot AND brighter sounding without modifying it. It's an extrapolation on the old Bill Lawrence Q filter principle, allowing to use a choke (an inductor) to revoice a pickup...

-find some cheapo 16k MIC humbucker. it costs a few bucks on various sites. A model with two rows of slugs would work well.

-pull off its magnet and baseplate. Just keep the coils and their wire. You have now your choke / inductor (and you could even use it to build a VariTone by adding some capacitors on a rotary switch to it).

-connect these two coils and nothing else in parallel with the 500T. Leave them in the guitar. There's normally enough space in the electronic cavity for that. Just avoid the thing to touch any hot wire (insulating tape is your friend there).

It will divide by 4 the sum of the DCR and inductance of both pickups, without added noise. As the 500T is hot as heck, it won't be annoyed by an inert pickup in parallel. It will just sound closer to a P.A.F. replica, with realistic resistive / inductive values (around 8k and a bit below 4H, most likely).

I share this idea because I've already applied it and know that it works as long as proper components are used (500k pots welcome in this case, BTW). FWIW. HTH...

 

[Wolfshead]

Alright, thanks for the replies guys. I guess the 500T just sounds like crap then, nothing to do with the little cap! Kicking myself as a 490T/480R set I was watching on ebay sold for really cheap and I missed it. They would have been perfect for the V.

​

 

[zionstrat]

I agree with Artie: it's most likely a "safety cap" from ground to stop bar. My friend luthier mounted such things in his guitars too.

Tonally, it's not doing anything, like beaubrummels said.

And yes, a 500T effectively "sounds full and hot, just kinda fuzzy". Reasons: it's a high DCR/high inductance model with 3 ceramic mags...

Gibson tends to use 300k pots to tame it but it also makes it sound even fuller.

Pulling off the two lateral magnets and putting a single AlNiCo magnet in center position would calm it to some extent.



Now, let's share is a possible trick to make it less hot AND brighter sounding without modifying it. It's an extrapolation on the old Bill Lawrence Q filter principle, allowing to use a choke (an inductor) to revoice a pickup...

-find some cheapo 16k MIC humbucker. it costs a few bucks on various sites. A model with two rows of slugs would work well.

-pull off its magnet and baseplate. Just keep the coils and their wire. You have now your choke / inductor (and you could even use it to build a VariTone by adding some capacitors on a rotary switch to it).

-connect these two coils and nothing else in parallel with the 500T. Leave them in the guitar. There's normally enough space in the electronic cavity for that. Just avoid the thing to touch any hot wire (insulating tape is your friend there).

It will divide by 4 the sum of the DCR and inductance of both pickups, without added noise. As the 500T is hot as heck, it won't be annoyed by an inert pickup in parallel. It will just sound closer to a P.A.F. replica, with realistic resistive / inductive values (around 8k and a bit below 4H, most likely).

I share this idea because I've already applied it and know that it works as long as proper components are used (500k pots welcome in this case, BTW). FWIW. HTH...

Freefrog, that's simply amazing! I'm guessing that would help tame any hot pup... I've only used dummy coils for noise cancellation, that is a really cool idea it's way out of my box!

 

[freefrog]

Zionstrat, simply glad if an idea seems useful for someone else... Yep, dummy coils can be used to fine tune the tone and it works rather well with hot pickups. Weak ones can also take advantage of this trick as long as the inductor is "beefy" enough : if keeps high resistance and inductance values, giving a realistic sound. I've used a wide variety of inductors for that, with or without added resistors (home wound coils, small audio transformers, epoxy potted mini-chokes, old pickups)...

For the record, below is a screenshot showing the electrically induced resonant peak of a Gibson 500T, a 496R, and a 500T + "filter" (which is an humbucking dual dummy coil working on the principle explained in my previous post). Upper line = frequency response, dotted line under it = phase response. Suggests how close the 500T + filter is to the 496R.



And now, here is the difference between played chords as captured by a stock 500T vs a bridge P.A.F. clone... Should allow to see the relationship between the electrical responses pictured above and how it's translated as a musical frequency response once the pickups are used in a guitar. Sorry, I've not at disposal the response of the 500T + filter but its curve would be close to the blue line below... I'll post it if I find the related doc in my crowded archives and if time permits (although I won't be at home the next days).

 

[Aceman]

If 490, 498 is what you dig, Try a 59 / Custom 5 set.

Although that V just screams for vengeance with a 500T and some Judas Priest riffs! YMMV

 

[Wolfshead]

If 490, 498 is what you dig, Try a 59 / Custom 5 set.

Although that V just screams for vengeance with a 500T and some Judas Priest riffs! YMMV

Well, of course, Ace! The first thing I did when I got it was play British Steel. Tonight I played some of the tunes on Killing Machine and Stained Class. And I recorded a podcast theme song with it too. It sounds good in the house and through modelling amps, but it sounded like shit through a real Marshall 100W amp in the studio - the low output Burstbuckers in my 2018 Explorer were the best sounding pickups I've ever heard in that studio, they were incredible. I need to replace the 500T with a 490T or a Burstbucker.

 

[Aceman]

Turn the gain down, let the pickups do the work.

And get with some "Not old Geezer" Priest...Screaming, Defenders, Retribution. LOL

 

[ehdwuld]

I did a version of the coil in Parallel
with just a resistor

Sized large enough to get what resistance i wanted

In my case
I had a 10k Neck pickup
wanted an 7-8 k

Put a resistor with a 20k value
In Parallel

20 +10 = 30 ÷4 = 7.5k
Perfect

 

[freefrog]

A resistor is a good idea but it does half of the job compared to dummy coils: it lowers the output level. It doesn't shift up the resonant frequency, which is the main interest of parallel inductors - and the reason why a hot HB can mimic a P.A.F. clone once in parallel with some other coil(s).

NOTE - Inductors in parallel with a PU are not far to emulate the pickup itself wired in parallel. The difference is that external components allow to fine tune the resistance/inductance of parallel wiring (whose values are fixed if the pickup is just in parallel with itself).

Zionstrat, I've mounted the system mentioned in my previous posts as a switchable option, for someone who wanted a versatile wiring (500T @ full power or thinner / brigther sounding, just as if it was a lower resistance pickup). Not enough time to find the related frequency screenshots this morning. See you later. Maybe I'll dedicate a separate topic to this question in order to avoid parasiting this thread...

 

[ehdwuld]

Wouldn't it be easier to just wire the hot pickup on parallel?

 

[freefrog]

Wouldn't it be easier to just wire the hot pickup on parallel?

Yes, it would be easier. But external inductors have two advantages compared to mere parallel wiring:

1) as I said in the note above, they allow to fine tune resistive and inductive values. For instance, I've mounted "beefy" inductors in parallel with Epi style mini hums in order to give them the LR specs of Firebird pickups, just one Henry lower: it wouldn't work with a simple parallel wiring. The inductive/resistive loss would be twice the wanted one and the sound would get too thin.
2)with hot pickups, precisely, LR components in parallel also lower the output level just enough to give a pleasing and "realistic" sound. Conversely, a powerful pickup in parallel is still powerful. Hence a crisp and harsh tone, like a single coil pushed beyond reason by a Stratoblaster rather than like a weaker humbucker in series.
[SIDE NOTE - An exception to this is the SH13, whose parallel wiring gives a wonderful Fender single coilish tone thx to the thin blade poles and to their way to convey the magnetic field. But it's still not the sound of a weaker humbucker...]

IOW, I don't share complicated solutions just for the "pleasure" to write complicated things: behind my tedious attempts to contribute in a helpful way, there's technical reasons, validated by years of patient experiments. ;-)

More later if time permits and in another thread, in order to stop polluting this one... <:0)

 

[zionstrat]

Zionstrat, I've mounted the system mentioned in my previous posts as a switchable option, for someone who wanted a versatile wiring (500T @ full power or thinner / brigther sounding, just as if it was a lower resistance pickup). Not enough time to find the related frequency screenshots this morning. See you later. Maybe I'll dedicate a separate topic to this question in order to avoid parasiting this thread...

This is exactly what I was thinking about... Customer wanted to tame a nazgul bridge when needed... Not a lot of luck with splits or partial splits.. discussed parallel but ended up getting another guitar which sometimes is the right answer..

But now I wish I thought of the dummy humbucker! And yes a dedicated thread would be marvelous! Maybe you could talk more, comparing dummy coils to other mods...