Yeah, they weren't the brand they are today...they were the budget brand that had the cheapest hardware and pickups out there. They are really scarce in stores now.
Your best and most consistent "Bang for the buck" brand that you own & dig
- Thread starter Phantasmagoria
- Start date
Yeah, they weren't the brand they are today...they were the budget brand that had the cheapest hardware and pickups out there. They are really scarce in stores now.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Squier Classic Vibe are pretty good for the price point too! They just tend to need a fret job out of the box. But they're great mod platforms. I upgraded the bridge, pickup, and tuners in mine, and I'd put it against anying priced in the 600 range.
Any reason to go with the Player series as opposed to the Classic Vibe?
The Players are about twice the price, but I suspect not twice the value.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
The Players are the Mexican-made series? Don't have much experience, TBH. I'm honestly not *that* picky when it comes to Fender-types. They are not my go-to, but I like to keep my Esquire around for when I want that spanky sound.
I'm not a Tele conossieur, but my Classic Vibe Esquire really nails that kinda twangy, spanky, almost wiry kinda sound acoustically that I've always idealized Teles have, yet that doesn't lack low-end. It helps that is has a freakin' Quarter Pounder in there!
I'm not a Tele conossieur, but my Classic Vibe Esquire really nails that kinda twangy, spanky, almost wiry kinda sound acoustically that I've always idealized Teles have, yet that doesn't lack low-end. It helps that is has a freakin' Quarter Pounder in there!
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Mononoaware
Active member
I think Zoom gets some guff for the plastic aesthetic, but every Zoom multi-fx I've ever owned punched way above its weight.
Also, Yamaha. Love my Pacifica and their modeling amps.
Phantasmagoria
watch where you point that sabre
Yeah it's when they started upping their game & becoming competitive that's when their "labour problems" started. I think the objective was probably to keep them out of the US market, which is apparently working (at least for now)
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Oh, I love my HX Stomp for what it cost me, but the Fractal stuff is definintely a step above.
When they design one with a modern touch interface I will be first on the waiting list. I think Fractal is great if you like editing on the computer.
Even the Line 6 stuff is difficult and clumsy to edit on the unit itself. I would love if companies would include bluetooth so you could edit on a tablet wirelessly. You can set up a patch on the Fractal with the most commonly used parameters on the home screen, but it takes some pre-planning to figure out what those might be.
Phantasmagoria
watch where you point that sabre
With me it's actually the opposite. I want to be able to deal with physical knobs and controls :lmao:
Demanic
PenultimateTone Member
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Those amps were severely underraetd. They were really cool for what they were.
However, the thing I struggle with on modeling is the next gen comes out, and all of a sudden, your POD, POD 2.0, POD XT, POD X3, POD HD, etc. will soon be so outdated. And I honestly think that's part of the reason the Spider Valves didn't REALLY take off like they could have Not to say those Spider Valves don't have a sound that may be desirable nowadays, because they do sound cool for certain styles (I bet those would sound killer doing 2000's Meshuggah or Fear Factory riffing), but the thing you gotta consider is modellers are just computers running on software. And most people nowadays don't want their machines to run on 64MB RAM and Windows XP, LOL.
The Helix has been in the market for what? Like 6-7 years now? I'm not sure it will stay relevant much longer, TBH. Which honestly worries me about mine.
But then again, Line 6 has a tendency to really milk their modeling technology for decades, LOL. It wasn't too long ago when they were using their POD 2.0 technology on the Spider line. They just recently made the switch to the XT models on those amps, and even then, those algorithms are what? Like 25 years old?
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Well, just because the company comes out with a new model doesn't make the old one not sound good. Of course, everything can improve, but that is true with analog stuff, too. When I upgraded from the 'obsolete' Fractal AX8 to the FM3, the AX8 didn't start sounding bad to me. Looking back, I could have stayed with the AX8 and been just fine.
That being said, there is a big upgrade in sound from the POD HD series to the Helix. But if a new Helix comes out, the jump in quality won't be nearly as big. We are going to see incremental inching forward instead of giant leaps. I think that's what happens at the high end. Ideally, some of that tech will trickle down to lower priced models.
That being said, there is a big upgrade in sound from the POD HD series to the Helix. But if a new Helix comes out, the jump in quality won't be nearly as big. We are going to see incremental inching forward instead of giant leaps. I think that's what happens at the high end. Ideally, some of that tech will trickle down to lower priced models.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
For me, the biggest upgrade with the Helix modeling was the fact that they incoporated IR's. That was the HUGE downfall with the HD stuff for me and many others. The models were fine. They were an improvement over the XT/X3 generation. It was their cab sim technology that was so outdated for the time, especially when you compared it to the Fractal stuff which incoporated IR's since the very begginning.
I've read the Helix software was built "from the ground up", but I have a hard time believing that. Especially because the Line 6 modelling was never bad. It was just the cabs that really pulled it back. And suspiciously, you also get some HD models in the Helix stuff.
Even when the Helix stuff first started, their stock cabs were pretty bad, LOL. It was only since the latest update that they completely redid them (I think it was November last year?) that they became decent-sounding. And even then, I'd still much rather run some high-quality IR's like OwnHammer or Celestion Plus, personally.
That being said though, the Fractal stuff's modeling is just on another level. Not only do their models are more in depth with what you can tweak, but the quality of the sound is just better. Granted, if you run the same IR in both, the difference in quality is not night-and-day, but once you put them both in a mix under the microscope, you can tell. There is just more depth and detail to the Fractal stuff.
Which is a shame, because the HX Stomp is comparatively cheap, but the the top-of-the-line Helix stuff uses the same modelling algorithms and sound, and is pretty much in the same price range as the Fractal stuff.
JMO.
I've read the Helix software was built "from the ground up", but I have a hard time believing that. Especially because the Line 6 modelling was never bad. It was just the cabs that really pulled it back. And suspiciously, you also get some HD models in the Helix stuff.
Even when the Helix stuff first started, their stock cabs were pretty bad, LOL. It was only since the latest update that they completely redid them (I think it was November last year?) that they became decent-sounding. And even then, I'd still much rather run some high-quality IR's like OwnHammer or Celestion Plus, personally.
That being said though, the Fractal stuff's modeling is just on another level. Not only do their models are more in depth with what you can tweak, but the quality of the sound is just better. Granted, if you run the same IR in both, the difference in quality is not night-and-day, but once you put them both in a mix under the microscope, you can tell. There is just more depth and detail to the Fractal stuff.
Which is a shame, because the HX Stomp is comparatively cheap, but the the top-of-the-line Helix stuff uses the same modelling algorithms and sound, and is pretty much in the same price range as the Fractal stuff.
JMO.
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Fractal's claim to fame was IR loading. Back in the era when cab sims were generally quite bad, they offered IR loading. The only other one that could do it was the Digitech GSP unit with a hack. If you listen to those early videos, even ones up to the AX8 generation, the modeling is not great by today's standards.
My suspicion with Fractal is that everyone who buys it suffers from confirmation bias. Even though other options may sound as good/better, no one is ready to admit it. You cant just walk into a store and buy one and compare. Its mail order, and it costs quite a bit. Is it amazing? From what I've heard on youtube the modeling is on par with others, but the reverbs/FX sound amazing because its a powerful device.
My recent experience with modelers was A/Bing the Zoom G11 against the well regarded Boss GT1000. I absolutely thought the amp modeling of the Zoom sounded better and had more realistic response to signal from the guitar and boost pedal models. And of course the interface is much better. This after being a Boss fanboy for many years and owning a GT100. Go figure.
I tried the Helix five years ago and was unimpressed. Five years before that, I tried the HD and while it was better direct than the GT100, its use as a MFX in 4cm with real amps was tragic. I have never actually kept a Line 6 device. I can think of four different things I bought and returned/sold instantly.
I believe Fractal is losing mindshare. With the new ToneX suite and pedal, everyone can get that level of modeling for $400 (or less if using only on the computer). It wasn't the Quad Cortex that disrupted everything, it appears it will be the ToneX.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
I think the amp modeling on the Boss GT1000 is pretty subpar, personally. It's the effecs stuff that Boss excels at. Not cheap or bang-for-the-buck either.
JMO.
I haven't tried the Tone X stuff. It seems like they took a radical new direction with amp profiling rather than modeling. That is very interesting. The Amplitube stuff was never all that great. But I honeslty stopped paying attention to Amplitube in the Pod Farm and Revalver era.
If you tried the Helix witht the stock cabs, I don't blame you. They were severely underwhelming in the beginning up until recently. Even now, I much prefer using external IR's, but they've certainly gotten better.
Then again, a good IR gets you 75% of the way there. Much like you can run an OK amp into a well-mic'd good cab, and still be able to produce something record-worthy.
JMO.
I haven't tried the Tone X stuff. It seems like they took a radical new direction with amp profiling rather than modeling. That is very interesting. The Amplitube stuff was never all that great. But I honeslty stopped paying attention to Amplitube in the Pod Farm and Revalver era.
If you tried the Helix witht the stock cabs, I don't blame you. They were severely underwhelming in the beginning up until recently. Even now, I much prefer using external IR's, but they've certainly gotten better.
Then again, a good IR gets you 75% of the way there. Much like you can run an OK amp into a well-mic'd good cab, and still be able to produce something record-worthy.
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I don't have time to demo everything and compare them. I know the G11 sounds and plays great for me and does the specific things I'm looking for. I thought it sounded better than the Helix, which has a weird input compression thing going on and a strange top end. Its like the Helix "averages" input gain and Eq so that different pickups sound more alike and more compressed. But people get great results with it on youtube so what I dislike personally when I play it is not translating out.
The GT1000 was underwhelming and the UI sucks. Never played the Fractal because mail order and I'm not really interested in buying a tweaker type product where you have to use snapshots and parallel channels to get fast switching.
ToneX is the first device in a long time that has my interest. My concern is the latency, which is supposed to be 3ms. So if you put that in the loop of an FX processor, you have the latency from two rounds of conversion of the "host", and then add 3ms. That is too much for my liking. I personally think the ToneX would be best as part of an analog pedalboard.
It seems like such a distant thing, sweating over which modeler is better. They all work well now but each one has its own idiosyncracies.
The ToneX videos sounded buzzy and thin to me