Your best and most consistent "Bang for the buck" brand that you own & dig

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't have time to demo everything and compare them. I know the G11 sounds and plays great for me and does the specific things I'm looking for. I thought it sounded better than the Helix, which has a weird input compression thing going on and a strange top end. Its like the Helix "averages" input gain and Eq so that different pickups sound more alike and more compressed.

I don't disagree about the Helix's high-end being slightly artificial, but I don't think that's a thing I'd notice without actually spending some time with the unit, recording it, a/b'ing it, and listenng with extremely critical ears. I'm not disagreeing with you, but to me, the true test of a modeler is how well it records, how little post prod it needs, and how well it takes the processing that you do need to make to it. I'm like that with real gear as well. I mean, it's satisfying to get a good sound in the room, but the ultimate goal I aspire to is making guitars fit in a mix. And I think the Helix, at least in my case, does just fine. Plus to me, it's always been hard to hear real in-depth subtle differences and nuances in tone while focusing on playing as well. I mean real in-depth nuances, not just broad EQ and gain voicing.

However, I've always been sort of in the James Hetfield school of thought for tone, attempting beat on the strings with the right hand as consistently hard as I can 99& of the time I pickup up a guitar. But I've never noticed (at least the models within the HX that I use) it being particularly unresonsive comparef to the "real" amps that I use (big lover of EVH, Peavey, and Mesa amps here). I, however, am not interested in mid-gain tones at all, so I don't really demmand extreme dyanmic response from real-life amps or my Helix.

But I go back to my point. Don't judge the Helix based on the stock cab sounds. I've never actually even bothered making to effort trying to make the stock cabs work. Why take the long way 'round if OH IR's get you there faster, easier, and almost always better.

How do you use your Zoom? I have a tube poweramp for whenever I try to make some noise in the room, but I just recently came to the conclusion that if I need to do that, I've always preferred plugging into a "real" amp rather than using my HX as a preamp.

About the input being compressed, averaged, or nomalized, pretty sure it's not the case. I don't see or hear anything special going on in the input. I don't see many people talking about the input pad on the HX, though. And medium hot and hot pickups definitely need it because picking hard on those eat up the HX's input headroom fast. Without the intput pad, something towards the higher end of mid output pickups like the JB, 498T, or Custom make it clip bad if you don't engage the pad.

 

[Top-L]

I don't disagree about the Helix's high-end being slightly artificial, but I don't think that's a thing I'd notice without actually spending some time with the unit, recording it, a/b'ing it, and listenng with extremely critical ears. I'm not disagreeing with you, but to me, the true test of a modeler is how well it records, how little post prod it needs, and how well it takes the processing that you do need to make to it. I'm like that with real gear as well. I mean, it's satisfying to get a good sound in the room, but the ultimate goal I aspire to is making guitars fit in a mix. And I think the Helix, at least in my case, does just fine. Plus to me, it's always been hard to hear real in-depth subtle differences and nuances in tone while focusing on playing as well. I mean real in-depth nuances, not just broad EQ and gain voicing.

However, I've always been sort of in the James Hetfield school of thought for tone, attempting beat on the strings with the right hand as consistently hard as I can 99& of the time I pickup up a guitar. But I've never noticed (at least the models within the HX that I use) it being particularly unresonsive comparef to the "real" amps that I use (big lover of EVH, Peavey, and Mesa amps here). I, however, am not interested in mid-gain tones at all, so I don't really demmand extreme dyanmic response from real-life amps or my Helix.

But I go back to my point. Don't judge the Helix based on the stock cab sounds. I've never actually even bothered making to effort trying to make the stock cabs work. Why take the long way 'round if OH IR's get you there faster, easier, and almost always better.

How do you use your Zoom? I have a tube poweramp for whenever I try to make some noise in the room, but I just recently came to the conclusion that if I need to do that, I've always preferred plugging into a "real" amp rather than using my HX as a preamp.

About the input being compressed, averaged, or nomalized, pretty sure it's not the case. I don't see or hear anything special going on in the input. I don't see many people talking about the input pad on the HX, though. And medium hot and hot pickups definitely need it because picking hard on those eat up the HX's input headroom fast. Without the intput pad, something towards the higher end of mid output pickups like the JB, 498T, or Custom make it clip bad if you don't engage the pad.

Like I said, when I hear recordings of the Helix I like them just fine, its when I played it myself I didn't like it that much. I was constantly tweaking the EQ to get it to do something it didn't want to do. I didn't try external IRs.

When you play some of the Helix models with low output pickups, or turn down the volume, I think you can hear the artificial compression. In some ways its better than real amps, because you get sustain and compression with low gain settings that real amps wouldn't get.

I use the G11 exclusively direct through my studio monitors. I am playing 98% of the time at my computer and I like the switching interface the Zoom gives me, which I don't get with any VSTi. I dont have to do any programming, just drag/drop the chain how I want it and I automatically get switching of every effect without any programming.

When using my amps I have a Boss GT-100 in 4cm to handle noise reduction, boost, and fx. I realize that neither of them are particularly popular modeling units, but they work for me.

This is a good representation of how the G11 sounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZsaOOWj8eY&t=445s&ab_channel=Ozielzinho

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Like I said, when I hear recordings of the Helix I like them just fine, its when I played it myself I didn't like it that much. I was constantly tweaking the EQ to get it to do something it didn't want to do. I didn't try external IRs.

Yeah, probably that, LOL.

Totally not user error at all, but I get your issue with it now. I think Line 6 should've spent more time programming the cabs since the beginning. But I assure you, it's not the models themselves having weird EQ issues to them. It was the horrible stock cabs which, after all, are fancy EQ filters the models end up going through. I mean, after all, there are plenty of videos from dudes comparing the models in the Helix to actual amps, and they can get scary close. It's always when both them are being run through the same IR's, though.

And that totally explains why when you hear clips of the Helix, you like them. I can't think of a single demoer making decent-sounding clips of it that isn't using some sort of commercial third-party IR's.

They did released an update last November that fixed the stock cabs. They're MUCH better now. I don't mean they slightly tweaked them. They COMPLETELY redid them. Still nowhere near as polished or mix-ready as Celestion Plus or OwnHammer, but much less off-putting.

Can your Zoom run IR's? If so, give the cheapest OwnHammber bundle a try if you can. I think it's called the Heavy Hitters. That Mesa cab is sooooooo easy to get good tones out of. The Mode Four and EVH cabs aren't half bad either!

 

[Demanic]

Those amps were severely underraetd. They were really cool for what they were.

However, the thing I struggle with on modeling is the next gen comes out, and all of a sudden, your POD, POD 2.0, POD XT, POD X3, POD HD, etc. will soon be so outdated. And I honestly think that's part of the reason the Spider Valves didn't REALLY take off like they could have Not to say those Spider Valves don't have a sound that may be desirable nowadays, because they do sound cool for certain styles (I bet those would sound killer doing 2000's Meshuggah or Fear Factory riffing), but the thing you gotta consider is modellers are just computers running on software. And most people nowadays don't want their machines to run on 64MB RAM and Windows XP, LOL.

The Helix has been in the market for what? Like 6-7 years now? I'm not sure it will stay relevant much longer, TBH. Which honestly worries me about mine.

But then again, Line 6 has a tendency to really milk their modeling technology for decades, LOL. It wasn't too long ago when they were using their POD 2.0 technology on the Spider line. They just recently made the switch to the XT models on those amps, and even then, those algorithms are what? Like 25 years old?

Now, I must ask, have you ever played through a Spidervalve?
The tech might be old, but it runs fine and sounds great. And not just for chugga chugga.

Sent from my SM-A115A using Tapatalk

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Now, I must ask, have you ever played through a Spidervalve?
The tech might be old, but it runs fine and sounds great. And not just for chugga chugga.

Sent from my SM-A115A using Tapatalk

Honestly, just superficially. I've never gotten to spend more than a few minutes with one, and even then, it was one of the combos, and I don't usually get along with open back cabs.

To my understanding, it is regular Spider/POD 2.0 models going through a Bogner-designed poweramp, no? I've never thought the Spider stuff was as bad as people made it out to be, honestly. I always thought its biggest drawback was the lousy poweramp they put in those amps which sounded ok quiet, and could get loud, but also sounded like it was about to explode at volume. I bet the Spider Valve more than solves that issue with some added tube punch to it.

I didn't mean to imply it would sound bad doing other stuff either. I just meant to say that's what *I* would use it for. I've honeslty never even attempted to play anything other than chug chug on a Spider. Maybe the occasional chorus-y clean.

I guess my point is those amps didn't get as big as they could because, at the time they released them, there were competitors putting more advanced tech in their products. And that's not to say the models on the Spider Valve were bad. They were just running on tech that was on its way out judging by other Line 6 contemporary releases (the DT25/DT50). I'm sure if they would've thought of the Spider Valve concept before, they would've sold like crazy.

I didn't mean to say it wasn't a good-sounding product. I was just implying than from a marketing standpoint, because of how the market for modeling stuff works, they missed the mark, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Demanic]

Honestly, just superficially. I've never gotten to spend more than a few minutes with one, and even then, it was one of the combos, and I don't usually get along with open back cabs.

To my understanding, it is regular Spider/POD 2.0 models going through a Bogner-designed poweramp, no? I've never thought the Spider stuff was as bad as people made it out to be, honestly. I always thought its biggest drawback was the lousy poweramp they put in those amps which sounded ok quiet, and could get loud, but also sounded like it was about to explode at volume. I bet the Spider Valve more than solves that issue with some added tube punch to it.

I didn't mean to imply it would sound bad doing other stuff either. I just meant to say that's what *I* would use it for. I've honeslty never even attempted to play anything other than chug chug on a Spider. Maybe the occasional chorus-y clean.

I guess my point is those amps didn't get as big as they could because, at the time they released them, there were competitors putting more advanced tech in their products. And that's not to say the models on the Spider Valve were bad. They were just running on tech that was on its way out judging by other Line 6 contemporary releases (the DT25/DT50). I'm sure if they would've thought of the Spider Valve concept before, they would've sold like crazy.

I didn't mean to say it was a good-sounding product. I was just implying than from a marketing standpoint, because of how the market for modeling stuff works, they missed the mark, but that's just my opinion.

Which is why you can pick them up cheap on the used market. Like I did.

Sent from my SM-A115A using Tapatalk

 

[Top-L]

Can your Zoom run IR's? If so, give the cheapest OwnHammber bundle a try if you can. I think it's called the Heavy Hitters. That Mesa cab is sooooooo easy to get good tones out of. The Mode Four and EVH cabs aren't half bad either!

The zoom can easily import IRs, but it comes with around 100 pre loaded. There was a free download Celestion cab from one of the highly regarded IR companies that I tried (forget which), and it didn't give me any better results than what was already on board. In fact, I am using the cab sims in the zoom instead of the IR loader, because it gives another dimension... of tweaking the mic position. Its more flexible and I can't tell a difference from an IR. And it uses less cpu.

I'm just happy with it. I was GASsing for an FM9 for about a week, but I listen to the Leon Todd demos online and it doesnt sound much different than what I'm getting now. If I needed specific models of Marshalls or Mesas I'd be all over it, but I'd rather buy a used Mark V for that money.

 

[Top-L]

I guess my point is those amps didn't get as big as they could because, at the time they released them, there were competitors putting more advanced tech in their products. And that's not to say the models on the Spider Valve were bad. They were just running on tech that was on its way out judging by other Line 6 contemporary releases (the DT25/DT50). I'm sure if they would've thought of the Spider Valve concept before, they would've sold like crazy.

Its interesting, but the Boss Katana is reusing the old GT100 modeling, which wasn't well regarded. In fact the sneaky amps app opens up the interface and lets you choose all the amps that were in the GT100 which shows the firmware is just modified a bit for the Katana amp.

I honestly believe that most people need other people to tell them what is good or bad.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I'm not too crazy on the Katanas myself, but they do feature a "better" (or at least more guitar-friendly) poweramp design than the solid-state Spiders, so they've got that going for them. I don't think they're "bad", but I always thought the Katanas are very marketing-driven. Meanwhile, the Vypyrs don't have nearly as much YouTube presence, yet I feel they're very competitive (or at least the originals were for their time, I don't know about the new ones).

But then again, we all fall victims to marketing to some extent. I am guilty of always wanting the most up-to-date modeller. But an example that comes to mind is how people on YouTube are raving on the Orange Crush as if it were the first and only solid state amp to ever sound good, LOL.

 

[Top-L]

I'm not too crazy on the Katanas myself, but they do feature a "better" (or at least more guitar-friendly) poweramp design than the solid-state Spiders, so they've got that going for them. I don't think they're "bad", but I always thought the Katanas are very marketing-driven. Meanwhile, the Vypyrs don't have nearly as much YouTube presence, yet I feel they're very competitive (or at least the originals were for their time, I don't know about the new ones).

But then again, we all fall victims to marketing to some extent. I am guilty of always wanting the most up-to-date modeller. But an example that comes to mind is how people on YouTube are raving on the Orange Crush as if it were the first and only solid state amp to ever sound good, LOL.

I bought a katana head about five years ago and returned it. A boss gt100 into a 6l6 tube amp sounds better. The katana is a clever package but it sounds like a $400 amp to me.

I dont like Orange amps, they sound fuzzy.

Didnt know they still made vypyrs.

 

[Mincer]

I like my Katana, but to be fair, I only use it for the clean channel and effects like phaser, delay, and reverb. The gain is OK, and I could certainly do any gig I currently have with it, but I don't need to explore it that much, as I only use the Katana for teaching. It is a better sounding amp than similarly priced (and similar technology) Peaveys and Voxes, both of which I have owned.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Vypyrs were cool because they had a pretty unique design in that it was an analog modeling solid state gain-stage based on their Transtube tech (which I honestly think is pretty good, I've always liked the Supreme and the XXL) with digital tonestacks and effects. I honestly feel that benefits them, because they are not as susceptible to sounding like 90's software 30 years later.

The downside was the horribly dated and tacky look.

Going back to the bang-for-the-buck topic, I honestly think Peavey amps in general are great bang-for-the-buck. Bandits can be had super cheap, and they pull off so many genres well. They're super loud as well, and heavy duty. I just wished they made them like at least 3/4 closed backs, but it is what it is.

The 6505 is not very versatile like whatsoever, but it is an iconic-sounding amp that rivals (IMO) anything Bogner, Diezel, and Mesa in sound quality, and that is nowhere near as pricy as those. Maybe not in component choice and build quality, but in end-result sound, it certainly does. Especially recorded.

The XXX was such an underrated amp for metal too. If you go easy on the gain knob, they sound sooooooo good and balanced on both gain channels. They can be set to sound super fat or super cutting too because the EQ was active, you just had to stay conservative with the settings because things could get out of hand fast. And even though people hated the looks, I always liked it. Yes, it's super cheesy, but that's kind of its charm. Kind of in a kitsch way.

I don't have much experience with the Classic series, but many people praise them as well.

Peavey has always had stellar amp designers working for them. Yes, they build them to a price point, so they probably won't be running super high-end compononents like the boutique brands, but they designs are so good, they hold up.

 

[Top-L]

The 6505 is not very versatile like whatsoever, but it is an iconic-sounding amp that rivals (IMO) anything Bogner, Diezel, and Mesa in sound quality, and that is nowhere near as pricy as those. Maybe not in component choice and build quality, but in end-result sound, it certainly does. Especially recorded.

The XXX was such an underrated amp for metal too. If you go easy on the gain knob, they sound sooooooo good and balanced on both gain channels. They can be set to sound super fat or super cutting too because the EQ was active, you just had to stay conservative with the settings because things could get out of hand fast. And even though people hated the looks, I always liked it. Yes, it's super cheesy, but that's kind of its charm. Kind of in a kitsch way.

I've had a JSX and a XXX amp. I loved them at the time, but the problem is that both of the gain channels have the extra distortion stage always engaged. Its like the amps have a built-in boost pedal with gain at 50%, and there is no way to defeat it to get an open, organic tone. Even when you turn down the gain, the extra gain stage is still there, so instead of being clear and glassy distortion, you get some "hashing" or "buzzing" or whatever you want to call it.

From what I've heard of the 5150, the same thing is true. Those peavey amps are just for metal, imo.

They are on an upswing in popularity. If the prices come back down I would pick up a used one just for kicks to play metal.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

From what I've heard of the 5150, the same thing is true. Those peavey amps are just for metal, imo.

Pretty much, yeah, LOL. I did say they weren't versatile.

I haven't tried the JSX, but I did own the XXX, and you're totally right. The gain knob has like zero range. Anythng usable is between 8:30-ish to 10:00-ish on both channels, which honestly, I thought were both equally high-gain, just voiced slightly differently.

But the Classic is, especially for clean/low/mid-gain sounds.

They also had a few over the years like the Butcher or the VTM that were just souped up Marshalls. And not always souped up in gain.

 

[Top-L]

Pretty much, yeah, LOL. I did say they weren't versatile.

I haven't tried the JSX, but I did own the XXX, and you're totally right. The gain knob has like zero range. Anythng usable is between 8:30-ish to 10:00-ish on both channels, which honestly, I thought were both equally high-gain, just voiced slightly differently.

But the Classic is, especially for clean/low/mid-gain sounds.

They also had a few over the years like the Butcher or the VTM that were just souped up Marshalls. And not always souped up in gain.

The JSX was supposed to have a channel from the Classic, but the second channel on the JSX was gained out and over done. I think it was marketing BS, the JSX was just a tweaked XXX. The metal JSX faceplate added probably 10 pounds to the weight.

I wish they had made a truly versatile switching head. I heard the Valve King was a decent budget 800 clone.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

No, I don't thinkn the Valveking is an 800 clone.

Their straight up 800 clone was the Windsor. But it was really cheaply made.

They did have the VTM in the 80's, and I think that was an 800-inspired amp. That one was cool because it had a little switching matrix that let you toggle on and off different common mods people would do to 800's.

 

[Juanhanglo]

My whole modest collection consists of:

3 ibanez
1 Ltd
1 carvin
1 yamaha
3 warmoths


if I had to rank for bang for the buck, it'd be:
yamaha
ltd
ibanez
warmoth
carvin (as it stands today as kiesel. Back in the day carvin was number one by far)

Ranked by favorites:
Warmoth by far
Ltd (i love the eclipse)
​​yamaha
ibanez
carvin

 

[80's_Thrash_Metal]

Epiphone, of the dozen I've owned only one wasn't great
Dean, of the dozen I've owned, only one wasn't great

Cheap Jackson's, of the dozen I've owned, all have been pretty
good.

B.c. rich ...half a dozen, only one stinker.

 

[Joelski]

For new guitars, the higher end LTD's are pretty nice. For vintage, I like American Kramers from the 80's. Depending on what the market's doing, they can be had for a dime a dozen, or money in the bank.