Problems Playing Through the PA....

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Maybe just turn your send down a little.
And adjust your eq to fit the new place.
We use a pod xt, and it sounds great. It has been adjusted 10,000 times to get to this spot though.

Yes, that's part of the plan....

[tone4days]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

honestly? .. get a tone out of your amp for your personal, on stage, self monitoring purposes that satisfies you and then let go .. whatever is in the FOH or monitors is not your problem and not worth any fuss over

[DankStar]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

maybe try coming outta the speaker out with a direct box/speaker emulator. I liked it better than the simulated cab output of my flextone when I would record direct with it. not sure why he can't just mic the amp though if you're not happy with the direct sound.

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

honestly? .. get a tone out of your amp for your personal, on stage, self monitoring purposes that satisfies you and then let go .. whatever is in the FOH or monitors is not your problem and not worth any fuss over

That's the funny part. Before we are unmuted from the house (monitors and FoH), I turn my amp up a bit to basically play a bit and noodle around. It sounds great to me. That's what made me believe it was the sound man who needed to do the tweaking on his end...

[GuitarStv]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

That's the funny part. Before we are unmuted from the house (monitors and FoH), I turn my amp up a bit to basically play a bit and noodle around. It sounds great to me. That's what made me believe it was the sound man who needed to do the tweaking on his end...

Any chance that the PA speakers are causing funny reflections/reverberation with the high ceiling in the church? It could be as simple as moving the PA speakers a little, and tweaking the angles that they're firing at.

[kmcguitars]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Why to people think that sound guys are magicians?
You can only fix so much in the mix-
and as I said before, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken squat.

I'm sorry marvar, Didn't mean what I said as a blanket statement. There are some Pro audio engineers out there, Then others who have no business tuning in a AM/FM radio running boards. For the most part, I seem to encounter the later More so than the former. I've done sound for bands,And you have to be on top of a lot of things. If your getting a bad signal from the stage? The 1st place to resolve it is at the source. If for whatever reason it cannot be fixed on the stage? THAN, You go back to the board & tweak the trim gain ,EQ or add some compression. I've never been to a worship gig,But I imagine not every parish has a pro audio engineer volunteering his services, But rather another parishioner w/t dubious credentials giving it his best go?

[marvar]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I'm sorry marvar, Didn't mean what I said as a blanket statement. There are some Pro audio engineers out there, Then others who have no business tuning in a AM/FM radio running boards. For the most part, I seem to encounter the later More so than the former. I've done sound for bands,And you have to be on top of a lot of things. If your getting a bad signal from the stage? The 1st place to resolve it is at the source. If for whatever reason it cannot be fixed on the stage? THAN, You go back to the board & tweak the trim gain ,EQ or add some compression. I've never been to a worship gig,But I imagine not every parish has a pro audio engineer volunteering his services, But rather another parishioner w/t dubious credentials giving it his best go?

We're cool-
Sometimes I forget that others don't have my knowledge and experience.
I agree there are some tone deaf FOH worship engineers out there, but hey, they are usually volunteers, trying to serve the best way they can.
I'm lucky that I'm paid and furnished insurance, for doing something I love, and in some small way, I'm providing a ministry. We also do a TV broadcast, so I really have to have my game face on.
I just get tired of people always blaming the FOH engineer for everything, when often it isn't his fault, or he isn't aware of the problem- I know I'm very busy, I have 8 choir mics, up to 11 wireless mics, the podium, the piano and organ, and any Cd's or tapes to be used, an Orchestra, etc. all the while, with 3 monitor mixes, the house mix and the TV mix.

You should be able to go to the engineer, tell him what you want to hear, how you want to hear it, and any suggestions you might have. He then should be able to tell you what he can and can't do. I also highly recommend he get a copy of the Yamaha book about audio for worship.
If you approach him in Christian love, and just keep the theme that you are trying to have the best worship experience available to the audience, and that all of you are doing God's calling.

[ratherdashing]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Ah, it's the monthly "I can't get good tone in my church" thread.

I've played gigs in places where the PA looks like it did a couple tours in Fallujah and the "sound engineer" was basically the first guy lured out of the alley with the promise of a free highball, but I've never consistently had as many problems as you churchies seem to.

I keep seeing a few recurring themes in these threads:

"I need my stage volume to be quiet." How quiet are we talking about? There's a drummer there, right? As long as you're not overpowering the drums, what's the problem?

"The sound engineer is a jerk/moron." Okay, that happens all over the place, but why does it seem to happen way more often at a church? I suspect it has a bit to do with the stage volume thing: if your amp is down so low that it needs huge reinforcement, you're pretty much at the mercy of this bozo. I'm also guessing that aside from the sound guys who work the gigantic churches that have a budget for this sort of thing these guys aren't paid, right? Here's the thing though: sound guys at clubs (especially crappy ones) are lucky if they make enough money to pay their tab. If your church can scrounge up $50 a week, you can probably coax a semi-competent guy to do sound for you, assuming he's not too hung over on Sunday morning.

I kinda get the sense that these churches want "rock music" but don't want everything that is supposed to go with it, namely loud amps and proper sound reinforcement. I'm of the "do it right or don't do it at all" mindset when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'm willing to bet God is too.

[J Moose]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

That's the funny part. Before we are unmuted from the house (monitors and FoH), I turn my amp up a bit to basically play a bit and noodle around. It sounds great to me. That's what made me believe it was the sound man who needed to do the tweaking on his end...

So put a mic on the amp... problem solved.

Honestly I never take the DI from Line6 stuff even in a live situation. Always but always a mic. Don't trust the DI's... too many problems over time & they always sound a little funky to me. Usually a murky & wooly bottom-end with a pinched nasal top.

Honestly what you're describing might be some sorta clipping, too hot a signal somewhere... but it might also be a line that's single-ended. What that means is that one of the three pins on an XLR (or TRS) is disconnected... and that'll be distorted, harsh, scratchy & lack bottom end.

What it is exactly can't be figured out over the interknot... you gotta set aside an hour or so to talk & work with the engineer to figure it out.

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Marvar,

I understand what you're saying. This system is a totally different system that the one at my last church. It's much higher quality and more complex. I saw VU meters so I don't think it's digital. I also know that it's not all about me. I've been playing for a pretty long time and my job is to help enhance the overall worship experience; not to monopolize it, so I know where you're coming from. Our sound man is good and he's a good guy. I think it's going to take tweaking from my end as well as his.

Do you recommend different settings when going direct than when miced? I have thought about throwing an SM-57 in front of my amp. Being that it is a modeling amp, I never felt the need like I did with my tube amps. However, he has said, in the past, that he would rather mic me than have me go direct.

Butch, I close mic'd a modeling hybrid amp at my last P&W gig. I ran an SM57 on a 1x8" combo amp (VOX AD15VT) every Sunday for a year, and the PA'd sound was excellent.

Granted, both the sound guy and I were very comfortable with an SM57 on an amp as we'd both done that a time or two before.

I ran the amp very quiet, 2-digit decibels for sure, and the tone was very full and warm and clear.

If I was in your spot, I'd go for a mic out front.

-Hunter

[Reload in 5]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

"I need my stage volume to be quiet." How quiet are we talking about? There's a drummer there, right? As long as you're not overpowering the drums, what's the problem?

"The sound engineer is a jerk/moron." Okay, that happens all over the place, but why does it seem to happen way more often at a church? I suspect it has a bit to do with the stage volume thing: if your amp is down so low that it needs huge reinforcement, you're pretty much at the mercy of this bozo. I'm also guessing that aside from the sound guys who work the gigantic churches that have a budget for this sort of thing these guys aren't paid, right?

I kinda get the sense that these churches want "rock music" but don't want everything that is supposed to go with it, namely loud amps and proper sound reinforcement. I'm of the "do it right or don't do it at all" mindset when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'm willing to bet God is too.

You are correct that the sound guys at my church arent paid. Heres where the issue comes in.
The church was built, set up, and run with piano / organ for so long, thats what the sound guys know. Add in amps and drums and they arent comfortable anymore.
So we run NO amps. Sound is great at our church. I have no issues with it.
Main worship center we use pods, and electronic drums.
Youth worship we have acoustic drums, and run our amps. Balance out the amps and drums, use the PA for vocals and acoustic.

[JOLLY]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Problem solved.

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Wow, a lot of different opinions and experiences here. First off, Let's level-set a bit. I have been playing for over 30 years. I've been playing out for almost as many years. I know my instrument and how to achieve the tone I want. I hear mic the amp and don't mic the amp. I'll try both ways. as far as moving the PA speakers, that's not going to happen. The church's sound system is a $500,000 system that was designed as the church sanctuary was designed. Nothing's getting moved.

As far as the monthly, "my tone in church stinks" comment. That didn't even need to be said. Referring to players who play in praise and worship environments as "churchies"? Come on - that doesn't add anything to the conversation either.

I have been playing in this type of setting for a long time. I'm not a novice. This is the first time though, that I have experienced this type of challenge with regard to tone. I'm not whining and it's not about me. I just want to add a nice blend to the mix and a clean tone when it's called for.

[guitfiddle]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Sounds to me like the problem a lot of sound guys run into...wanting to put everything through the pa and keep the volume onstage super low. The idea to me is reinforcement...that is to say that you only need to boost what you're not getting enough of.

See if he'll let you run the amp the way you like, then only give enough to the FOH and monitors to balance it all out. It's an open back cab, so it should disperse pretty well. Does the drummer hit hard at all?

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Sounds to me like the problem a lot of sound guys run into...wanting to put everything through the pa and keep the volume onstage super low. The idea to me is reinforcement...that is to say that you only need to boost what you're not getting enough of.

See if he'll let you run the amp the way you like, then only give enough to the FOH and monitors to balance it all out. It's an open back cab, so it should disperse pretty well. Does the drummer hit hard at all?

I guess I have let the wrong idea get into everybody's head. Our monitor's are loud - loud enough that I can't hear the drums acoustically. They're not behind plexiglass either. We also have a full orchestra onstage with us. When I say quiet, I mean that I want my guitar's volume coming from the monitors and not my amp.