NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

[Grindspine]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I've got some G.E. 6550s that are unbeatable... Sucks as when they die, I won't be able to justify another set lol. I've also got a few ge 12ax7s. I don't much like them in my Marshall or Eggie. Too soft. Work good in the PI spot though.

Modern I like tung sols and sovtek lps for 12ax7 and ruby for el34

Yeah the GE 6550A tubes are amazing. They just sound so pure, powerful, clear, have ultra high headroom. The Svetlana (winged C) 6550A comes close from what I can tell. I never did do an A/B comparison, but have heard both brands plenty of times.

I've got a JAN GE 12AX7A in the V3 spot of my Triaxis. It seemed pretty soft, as you stated, so I threw it in that spot so it would be emphasized on the clean modes. The Telefunken and Mullard ECC83s have so much more character, so the GE is really subtle in the slot where I have it.

[Grindspine]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Note to self: Don't buy an amp from Joe.

I know everyone says old tubes were just made better than current tubes. How has nobody reproduced a new tube EXACTLY like the old tubes. Aren't the Gold Lions reproduction tubes? Either way, could the differemce in tubes be time, just like in pickups (ala the JB thread https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...d-JB-Photos-gt). The aged tube (time) affects the tone more than how it was produced. Can we get an Antiquity tube???

No.

Tubes back then were used in everything electronic that needed a diode; now solid state transistors are used. Back then, tubes were used in anything from televisions to medical and military gear. A lot of tubes were made and quality control had to be tight.

Tubes made today are not held to the same standards simply because you don't have life critical applications depending upon the reliability of a tube.

Even if modern tube manufacturers put major effort into producing the same quality as those older tubes, they would never see a financial return that would make it worthwhile.

[Grindspine]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I leave NOS stuff to the audiophiles and their hi-fi gear (i.e. gear that is set up and used in one location, not transported from place to place), and I've built a lot of tube gear (guitar amps, mic preamps, hi-fi pre and power amps).

The world of guitar amps is a harsh one, and tubes get a hard life and often eaten up quite quickly. I have always opted to use tubes that are currently available so that when an amp needs new tubes, it's easy and affordable to get them back up to scratch again. Many supposedly NOS tubes now are not new, and the trend in guitar circles has pretty much seen most of the good ones get purchased, at ever-increasing prices.

I had to repair a non-functioning Fender Champ one time. The owner had purchased a NOS 6V6 for it and plugged it in. As soon as i got the amp working, the expensive power tube died. They weren't rated for the high plate voltage. A new EH version worked great, and the owner was out of pocket for the cost of an expensive NOS tube that he (and I) never even got to hear.

The old tubes may indeeed have been better built and sound slightly better, but they're a disposable item, and ... that was then, this is now. It is still possible to get great sound using contemporary tubes, which can easily be replaced at realistic prices at any time. I built many amps and re-tubed many others with current-production tubes, and every single owner has been more than happy. At some point players need to take some responsibility for sounding good by what they do with their gear. And when i see how many guitar players treat their amps, it reinforces what a waste of time and money it is having NOS tubes ... I'm talking about taking hot amps out of hot rehearsal rooms into the cold night air, dragging hot amps quickly from a stage when doing support gigs, putting the amp in the boot (trunk ?) of a car and having it bounce around whilst driving, etc. etc.

So they might sound good or better for a little while, but often not long enough to justify the cost. And of course the supply is dwindling and what's left is probably mostly rubbish. The money wasted is probably better spent on better pickups and speakers. I get wonderful guitar tones without a NOS tube in sight. But good luck to you if you buy (literally) into this stuff, all you're doing is preciptitating the end. Personally I'll be glad when there are no more NOS tubes available, and i really think for all realistic and practical purposes, that stage has been reached, and all that's left are dodgy old tubes sold by dodgy sellers.

But don't let me stop you throwing good money away.

For an actively gigging musician, I agree that NOS tubes might not be the best investment as they are far more expensive to replace, however, military spec tubes were more durable and were made to handle at least some shock.

That being said, I try to baby my gear when I (rarely) move it from home. I also make sure the tubes have adequate warming and cooling time.

I would be happy to try other tubes in my Mesa rig, but with the investment I was making in the first place, I decided to buy something that was regarded as being able to bring the best out of my audio chain. I have not been disappointed.

[wahwah]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I know everyone says old tubes were just made better than current tubes. How has nobody reproduced a new tube EXACTLY like the old tubes. Aren't the Gold Lions reproduction tubes? Either way, could the differemce in tubes be time, just like in pickups (ala the JB thread https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...d-JB-Photos-gt). The aged tube (time) affects the tone more than how it was produced. Can we get an Antiquity tube???

Most of the tubes coming out of the Xpo-pul plant in Saratov, Russia are pretending to be 'reproductions' of popular tubes from the 50s and 60s European, UK and US plants. They produce tubes with a variety of brand names, including Genelex, Mullard and Tung Sol, but the truth is that these tubes are made in the same factory, on the same equipment, with the same materials, as their other brandings such as Sovtek, EH and Svetlana. There are several materials and processing methods that can no longer be used that were integral components of the manufacture of Golden Era tubes. Add to this the quality control of the 1950s compared to today, the concept of designing a product to fail rapidly to maximise profits, and the diminishment of a once global product demand to a relative handful of guitarists and audiophiles, and it becomes clear that tubes like those produced by the major manufacturers of 60 years ago will never be seen again. It is not the case that ageing is responsible for the superior tone of the good vintage tubes, it is how they were produced that accounts for their tone and longevity. At best, you would hope that a 1950s RCA black plate would sound exactly the way it would have in 1958.

It remains a fact that all of the classic tones that we associate with early British and American amps are in part due to the electronic componentry used at the time, including, of course, the tubes in both the preamp and power stages, along with the rectifiers and phase inverters. Early Fender amps used RCA black plates. Early Marshalls used Mullards from the Blackburn plant. These tubes helped create the guitar sounds we associate with the music of the time, and due to their longevity, for a decade or so after. Similarly, many of the tonal changes we heard from guitars through the 80s and beyond were in part due to the demise of the great UK, European and US factories, and the reliance on the vastly inferior Eastern Bloc and Chinese tube manufacturers. By the mid 80s, amp builders had no choice but to build their amps around these poor quality tubes. This is why most modern amp designs will not be improved by vintage tubes, and why true vintage designs will almost always be improved by good vintage tubes.

The term NOS will soon be considered obsolete with regard to tubes from the Golden Era, because there will be so few examples of genuine New Old Stock. Smart buyers realised a decade ago that the real bargains were to be found in buying 'good used' vintage tubes, tested to have around 90% of their life left in them. To give an example, I have had the same set of 1958 RCA black plates, a 12AX7, 12AT7, and a pair of 6V6GTs in a Fender Super Champ that flies road cased 70 times a year and does 150 shows a year, for the past 7 years. At this point, they show no signs of weakening, much less failing. From memory, I paid $20 for the 12AX7, $12 for the 12AT7, and $40 for the pair of 6V6GTs. Sadly, those prices (2003) no longer apply, and the stocks do seem to be dwindling. Admittedly, not every guitarist will appreciate the difference, but to those of us who do, the money spent in the past has easily justified itself, in terms of both longevity and tone. For most, the future will involve making the most of what exists, and no doubt some good music will still be made.




Cheers............................................ wahwah

[wahwah]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

For an actively gigging musician, I agree that NOS tubes might not be the best investment as they are far more expensive to replace, however, military spec tubes were more durable and were made to handle at least some shock.

To be honest, the JAN tubes from the major manufacturers were not designed with tone as the priority. They were designed for ruggedness, and in many cases, at the expense of tonal quality. The notion that these were somehow desirable for use by audiophiles and in guitar amps was promoted by tube dealers, whose stock of the truly toneful tubes had dried up, and all they could get in adequate supply was military surplus JAN tubes. The myth prevailed and the tubes continued to be perceived as desirable. Admittedly superior to any current production tube, and built to take a beating, but sonically not in the same league as the tubes designed with audio as the priority.




Cheers....................................... wahwah

[zzmoore]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

The notion that Vintage amps will sound "better" with NOS tubes and modern day amps are "designed around" modern tubes and Will Not/Can Not benefit from old glass is complete nonsense.
Buy some tubes, try them in your amp, and decide what YOU really hear. NOTHING is written in stone. Do not fall pray to more Internet myths..... that are casually and carelessly repeated by some guy whose only skill MIGHT BE that he types better than you do.
good luck

[speed2dirt]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Most of the tubes coming out of the Xpo-pul plant in Saratov, Russia are pretending to be 'reproductions' of popular tubes from the 50s and 60s European, UK and US plants. They produce tubes with a variety of brand names, including Genelex, Mullard and Tung Sol, but the truth is that these tubes are made in the same factory, on the same equipment, with the same materials, as their other brandings such as Sovtek, EH and Svetlana. There are several materials and processing methods that can no longer be used that were integral components of the manufacture of Golden Era tubes. Add to this the quality control of the 1950s compared to today, the concept of designing a product to fail rapidly to maximise profits, and the diminishment of a once global product demand to a relative handful of guitarists and audiophiles, and it becomes clear that tubes like those produced by the major manufacturers of 60 years ago will never be seen again. It is not the case that ageing is responsible for the superior tone of the good vintage tubes, it is how they were produced that accounts for their tone and longevity. At best, you would hope that a 1950s RCA black plate would sound exactly the way it would have in 1958.

It remains a fact that all of the classic tones that we associate with early British and American amps are in part due to the electronic componentry used at the time, including, of course, the tubes in both the preamp and power stages, along with the rectifiers and phase inverters. Early Fender amps used RCA black plates. Early Marshalls used Mullards from the Blackburn plant. These tubes helped create the guitar sounds we associate with the music of the time, and due to their longevity, for a decade or so after. Similarly, many of the tonal changes we heard from guitars through the 80s and beyond were in part due to the demise of the great UK, European and US factories, and the reliance on the vastly inferior Eastern Bloc and Chinese tube manufacturers. By the mid 80s, amp builders had no choice but to build their amps around these poor quality tubes. This is why most modern amp designs will not be improved by vintage tubes, and why true vintage designs will almost always be improved by good vintage tubes.

The term NOS will soon be considered obsolete with regard to tubes from the Golden Era, because there will be so few examples of genuine New Old Stock. Smart buyers realised a decade ago that the real bargains were to be found in buying 'good used' vintage tubes, tested to have around 90% of their life left in them. To give an example, I have had the same set of 1958 RCA black plates, a 12AX7, 12AT7, and a pair of 6V6GTs in a Fender Super Champ that flies road cased 70 times a year and does 150 shows a year, for the past 7 years. At this point, they show no signs of weakening, much less failing. From memory, I paid $20 for the 12AX7, $12 for the 12AT7, and $40 for the pair of 6V6GTs. Sadly, those prices (2003) no longer apply, and the stocks do seem to be dwindling. Admittedly, not every guitarist will appreciate the difference, but to those of us who do, the money spent in the past has easily justified itself, in terms of both longevity and tone. For most, the future will involve making the most of what exists, and no doubt some good music will still be made.




Cheers............................................ wahwah

Wow! Thanks wahwah! That was very informative. I'm curious what materials and methods had to change though.

As for modern amps designed around cheaper modern tubes, I have no qualms with that. Bogner, one of the great boutique amp builders around, said his amps were designed and sound best with cheap Chinese preamp and Winged C's power amp tubes. That's been confirmed to be the best by many Bogner users.

[wahwah]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

The notion that Vintage amps will sound "better" with NOS tubes and modern day amps are "designed around" modern tubes and Will Not/Can Not benefit from old glass is complete nonsense.
Buy some tubes, try them in your amp, and decide what YOU really hear. NOTHING is written in stone. Do not fall pray to more Internet myths..... that are casually and carelessly repeated by some guy whose only skill MIGHT BE that he types better than you do.
good luck

I can only assure you that typing is not something that I consider high on my skill set list. One finger at a time, digitally pedestrian. My real area of expertise is as a professional musician, majoring in live performance and tone production, a field which has been my sole source of income since 1981. Since qualifications are difficult to formalise in my field, I can only offer up examples of my work to speak for themselves, and some can always be found in my sig. I leave it to my employers and the listener to decide for themselves if I have an adequate understanding of producing guitar noises.

With regard to my comments regarding vintage and modern amps and tubes, I can only point out that a quick re-read will show that I was careful to leave enough room for exceptions. As with anything subjectively tone related, experimentation is a valid process. In support of my comments, I would refer to information provided by amp builders such as Reinhold Bogner and Dave Ulbrick. Bogner's comments have been well noted, as recently as speed2dirt's post above, and Dave Ulbrick has been my personal tech for over 20 years. These are just two experts who state that they design their amps around specific tubes. At no point did I say that modern amps "will not/can not" benefit from vintage tubes. The rest is a matter of personal experience with a wide range of amps and tubes. I would cite the topic of clipping diodes and their effect on the influence of associated tubes as one example of how modern designs are less likely to benefit from vintage tubes. I can only imagine it would be a difficult argument to sustain that this is some form of internet myth, but as always, I'm more than happy to learn.





Cheers......................................... wahwah

[wahwah]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Wow! Thanks wahwah! That was very informative. I'm curious what materials and methods had to change though.

As for modern amps designed around cheaper modern tubes, I have no qualms with that. Bogner, one of the great boutique amp builders around, said his amps were designed and sound best with cheap Chinese preamp and Winged C's power amp tubes. That's been confirmed to be the best by many Bogner users.

I'm curious about that too, but I don't claim to have any definitive answers. The common perception is that some materials and processes would fall outside strict environmental regulations, but others argue that the only true restrictions are economic in nature.

I would love to be there when some internet expert tries to argue with Reinhold that his amps would sound better with vintage tubes!





Cheers.......................................... wahwah

[hermetico]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I think that to generalize about a particular tube is a bad thing.
There are tubes that simply work better in a particular position of a particular amp.
So you can think the best tube is X, because it gave you what you wanted in amp A but, once you try it in amp B you think isn't so good.

My own experience says that NOS (real NOS!) tubes tend to work better in old-school designed amps, while they tend to sound too much hi-fi in moderner designed amps.
By example, a Sovtek EL84 sounds a bit sterile in a Koch Studiotone or in a Vox Nigth Train but, it's just what the doctor recommended in a Blues Jr.
I don't like JJ ECC83S in any of my amps (as tone shapers) but, it's the only real deal in my Marshall 1923C (some sort of DSL50).
A NOS RFT tube makes a big difference in a Fender Princeton Reverb reissue but, it sounds too hi-fi in most of other amps...

This, and the fact that same tube model can have very different values, related to gain, output, transconductancy (inconsistent production) in different individuals, makes it even harder.

Usually, to get a tested/verified tube from a tube dealer (like TAD, GT, Wattford Valves, etc), brings you a better sound, since they are picking by hand tubes from very inconsistent production batches.
Usually, to get an unverified/tested tube from those same dealers, gives you the worst tubes (those that were rejected during their "premium" selection).
You compare both and, you can hate the bulk one and love the selected one, in same amp, same position.
Unfortunatelly, very few people can have it's own electronics equipment to verify the goodness of each tube.
The Orange DIVO VT-1000 is comming and, this will certainly help!!!.

Which tubes made me smile?.

Mullard EL84 reissue, perfect pair 7, in a Night Train but, only if you can really krank the amp.
TAD EL84-STR, perfect pair 7, in a Koch Studiotone combo
Sovtek EL84, perfect pair 7, in a Fender Blues Jr.
Svetlana Winged =C= EL34 (authentic Svetlana's, not Red Sensor Svetlana stuff).
Genelec Gold Lion EL84, in my opinion the best sounding New Production EL84 BUT, they are weak and expensiver than NOS tubes so, forget it.
EH 6V6GT, probably the smoother and nicer sounding one but, it lacks dimensionallity.
TS 6V6GT, better results than with the EH, in terms of dimensionality and presence.

Sovtek 12AX7-LPS, balanced triodes, in every PI position of every amp.
TAD ECC83-Cz (verified JJ ECC83S) in Marshall DSL50.
Mullard 12AX7 reissue, in V1 or V2 in several amps, only if they can be kranked enough, otherwise they can sound hi-fi and sterile.
EH 12AX7, when nothing else works.
TAD 7025-S Highgrade, very rich tube for V1 in most of amps.
TAD 7025-WA Highgrade, very rich tube for V1, in Night Train.
JJ ECC803S, in some reverb-drivers.
TAD 12AX7A-C (shughuang), only in PI and cathode-follower positions.
NOS JAN/Philips 5751 in PI positions, some amps.
NOS RFT ECC83, in Fender Princeton
NOS RFT ECC81, in Fender Princeton

I've made so many tube swapping in my amps that I would need to review my notes.

[GuitarDoc]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Yeh, and that's the big problem...what sounds great in one amp may not sound so good in another. Very hard to justify saying that tube "X" sounds great if you're the guy that tries it in an amp that it doesn't work so good in. I've got five amps that I currently play through and there are some tubes that are like magic in one amp but absolutely suck in one of the others. Generalizations are generally good, to give us a starting point. But it all comes down to trial and error. Try a tube and see how it sounds in YOUR amp. Then try another. Pretty soon you end up with a pretty large collection of spare tubes. (Not necessarily a bad thing).

It's that age-old unquenchable quest for tone thing. It's why there are so many different types of tubes and pickups on the market today. We are NEVER "completely" happy with what we've got until we have extensively tried all that there is. I've LONG since passed the point of diminishing returns.

[richard parker]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Does all this mean that there's not much point in having a vintage amp because it'll be eventually impossible to get good tubes for it ?

[rozman62]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

For 12AX7 tubes I like vintage RCA, Tungsol, GE, Tungsram, etc. I would love to get early Tungsol blackplates, Mullards, Telefunkins, Amperex Bugle Boys, etc but the prices are out of reach. I can afford them but refuse to pay the asking prices. I think the GE, Sylvania's and some Raytheon's are pretty good affortable preamp tubes. I did splurge and found some Tungsol large coke bottle 6550 power tubes made in the late 60's that sound amazing in my JMP. For current production tubes I like Winged C, Tungsol and JJ tubes. Rolling through tubes is fun but can quickly empty out your wallet.

[misterwhizzy]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Before this thread leaves the front page, I think we all owe wahwah a debt of gratitude for sharing his experience and wisdom. Very few people are able, and fewer still are willing.

[pzaxtl]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Well, don't quote me on this, but I'm a sucker for marketing claims. Meaning, I really like NOS tubes!!

I took an Ambien one night and burned through it instead of going to bed when I got sleepy. Two days later, I check my bank account to see if a particular check has cleared, and notice a purchase for $578 from KCANOS tubes. LOL