PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

[Matt42]

My main band is looking into getting a nicer PA system. We have a cheap Phonic system with crappy speakers that work fine for practice, and we've been borrowing nicer powered speakers for gigs where we need to provide our own sound, but we would like to have more inputs on the board, a bit more power, and most of all, our own speakers. I'm not really looking for recommendations on specific gear yet, as I still need to figure out how much power we'll need.

What I am wondering is whether a powered mixer or unpowered mixer + a power amp would be the way to go. I'm fairly clueless when it comes to this type of stuff, though I'm learning a lot of it by necessity, and as the band's resident gear nut, I figure I should be as well informed as possible before we make a purchase. So, what are the advantages/disadvantages of both and which do you prefer.

By the way, if it matters, we are a folk-rock/americana/country band; instruments include: Drums, Bass, Fiddle (through an amp), Electric Guitar, Acoustic Guitar on most stuff, sometimes the electric switches to acoustic, and the acoustic to banjo. Very vocal heavy.

Thanks in advance!

[IM4Tone]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

I use a powered mixer that I've owned for 7 or 8 yrs. If I were getting a new system, I'd opt for a non-powered mixer, 2 power amps (1 for mains and 1 for monitors), and non-powered speakers (mains and monitors). My reasons are that if any of the components have a major failure, it's cheaper to to replace the single function item; plus, if you start giging larger venues, it's easy enough to add another pwr. amp(s) and additional speakers. Its a flexibility issue.

The down side is convenience and portability. It's handy to have an all-in-one unit, but at the cost of flexibility. BTW, I'd never buy powered speakers as they seem disproportionally expensive.

[ItsaBass]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

As a sound guy who uses a separate mixer with powered speakers, and occasionally a borrowed powered mixer with non-powered cabs, I'd say that neither setup is ideal for gigs. Quality, high-powered powered speakers are heavy as hell, expensive, damage prone, and harder/more expensive to fix relative to non-powered cabs. And a powered mixer is tied to its board for life, not to mention that these units are often pretty cheesy, underpowered, and lacking in options.

My ideal PA setup is a mixer, amp/s, and standard speaker cabs. Not only do you get a more customizable and repairable system, but separate components themselves tend to be better in quality and power.

[SlyFoxx]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

The big boys go separate and so should you.

I've had very good experience with Crown and Carvin power amps, EV sx-300 speakers and Allen & Heath mixers.

Post an input list (how many mics and kinds of instruments you plan to use) plus the number of separate monitor mixes you think you'll want and the average size of the room/crowd...from there we can advise further.

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

I have a lightweight powered Yamaha 14-channel board that has a 500W x 2 built-in amp. This setup is convenient for some situations, but not immensely flexible. Certainly easier to move and set up than an unpowered board and a rack-mount power amp, but I usually end up augmenting this system with another amp (or two) and use the on-board amp just for running monitors.

But while this setup is convenient for small uses, I agree with the earlier comments here - you are probably better off going with an unpowered board and unpowered speakers. I seem to always be running out of inputs on a 16-channel board to run a 4-piece band, so make sure you have enough inputs for your worst-case scenario. It is well worth listing out all the mics and instrument inputs you would use during a gig to make sure you get enough board to cover your needs, especially if you do a lot of instrument changes during a set.

My gut tells me that the band you describe will have trouble fitting comfortably onto a 16-channel board. Yamaha makes a compact (rack-width) 20-channel board that might be a good size for you, without making you step up to a larger 24 or 32-channel board.

I would also avoid powered speakers. These tend to be smaller and heavier than non-powered speakers, and more expensive too.

I love Yamaha boards and speakers. Mackie boards are also great, and their amps aren't bad. QSC makes some nice power amps. Avoid Behringer (and all of its stealth brands) at all costs!!! There are other options around, but these are probably your best bang-for-the-buck.

Leave some room in your budget for mics, cables, (especially speaker cables!) and maybe even some road cases to protect your gear. This stuff is surprisingly expensive!

Shop used. There is a ton of great gear out there these days, so you should be able to get a good deal on a complete system if you look around.

[agentzero12]

PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

How loud you are plays a big role in what you need. I bought a powered mixer years ago and haven't had the money to change yet and while it is loud enough at practice, we push it pretty hard. If I had it to do over, and when I am able to buy again, it will be a separate mixer/amp.

[Chickenwings]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

powered mixers mean you don't have many leads to worry about. Easy setup and east transport. These things are getting lighter and more powerful than they used to be with the advent of class D amplification and smaller transformers. In a live situation you will probably only use your PA for smallish gigs where there is no in house PA system, so portability and reliability is a good thing. Get one with plenty of headroom (wattage wins) and the ability to power as many speakers as you require. An internal, but separate amplifier to run a foldback is useful too.

[Lazarus1140]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

This thread is right on time for me. I have an old Mackie powered mixer and my drummer has a Yamaha. Both are low powered models but are adequoate for practice.

The only thing I will add to the comments so far is, whether you go with separate components or not, pay particular attention to the quality of the preamps in whatever mixer you plan to buy. In my very limited experience this is an important consideration.

I have read nothing but stellar reviews of the Allen and Heath preamps. When I begin board shopping I will start with A & H.

[Grenade]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

Mine is a Samson with 2 500 watt power amps. When used live we use the internal power for moniters.

[jeremy]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

i have unpowered speakers, yamaha club V 15's for mains and monitors. good stuff for the money and reliable as hell. heavy and big though. someone else has the powered sub.

i use either a yamaha emx512sc lunch box powered mixer which is nice for portability and has decent power. if im only putting vocals and kick thru the pa this works great or i have a nice 16 channel mixer and power amps that i use for bigger stuff. it sounds better but is way more work so i only use it when i really need the inputs or power.

you cannot have too much power.

[Matt42]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

Here's out bare minimum input list: Drums (kick, overhead, snare), Bass, 3 Vocals, Electric Guitar amp mic, Fiddle amp mic, Acoustic guitar 1 DI, Acoustic guitar 2 DI, Banjo DI. So our minimum is 12. The 2 acoustic guitars could be put through 1/4" cables, but XLR would be preferable, since the DI's we have ideally work off of phantom power. We wouldn't mind being able to put another drum overhead on, and our bassist might need an addition input for his new upright bass if it wont gel with his current amp.

As far as size goes, I'm not sure. I'd say the most we'd be playing to would be 200-300 people at a wedding or something, and that would only be rarely. The rooms aren't huge, just medium sized bar rooms, probably 100-150 people. I'll definitely be asking some of the local musicians here for power recommendations for those specific areas.

Something else I'd like to have is the ability to set monitor levels for each channel, I'm not sure if that's a standard option on boards of this size or not, but thought it bore mentioning.

[uOpt]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

The moment drums go through the PA you probably should consider unpowered. The amps in the mixers aren't great.

Another thing that I noticed in recent years is that there is enormous variety in quality and features for mixers (more so than before), and that means increased incentive to change mixers later. You don't want to turn that into a power amp change, too.

[SlyFoxx]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

...
Something else I'd like to have is the ability to set monitor levels for each channel, I'm not sure if that's a standard option on boards of this size or not, but thought it bore mentioning.

You lost me with this unless you're saying can you mix each channel to a stage monitor and control the level of each channel. In that case the answer is yes, that's what a monitor mix is. What I was asking is how many different monitor mixes do you think you'll need. (stage wedges that contain a mix of what the person who hears it needs to hear the most.) Say the singer wants to hear himself and the rhythm guitar and the bass but not much else. The lead guitar needs to hear the bass and the lead vocal and his own voice singing harmony. Stuff like that.

To need more than four different monitor mixes can be a problem as mixers with more than four aux sends start to get pricey. The board my old band used for some time

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/

has six aux sends so that left four for monitor mixes and two for effects like reverb and delay. It would be hard to find a cheaper board that would be worth owning with six aux sends for less.

As for how much power ...my rule of thumb is 500 real watts into an 8 ohm load. Don't worry if your speakers can only handle say 300 watts. This isn't guitar it's PA so it's a different animal. Better to have too much power than not enough. If you really want to push the bass say 700-800 watts to the subs. The speakers will tell you if they are stressing from too much power well before they will blow and chances are you audience will show signs of "turn it down" well before that. (if you run tops and subs you'll need an active crossover to send the bass to the subs and the rest to the tops)

[Matt42]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

Ok, I'm a bit clearer on the monitor levels thing, I didn't realize that's what the Aux Send's were for.

Currently we usually play with 2 monitors, which is fine for us, it'd be nice to add a 3rd for the drummer, but that's not 100% necessary.

Right now we are looking at the JBL Eon 305 speakers, something like this board, and then whatever size power amps we'd need. We are looking at the Eon's because there are a few bands in town that use those in the venues we are needing them for. Anyone have any opinions on either of those?

Another question, regarding wattage with this stuff. When you say 500 watts of real power, are we talking about one 500 watt amp? Since the Eon's are 250w, would 250x2 equal 500 in this case? Would we then need another power amp (or a larger one) to run the monitors off of, plus more for the sub (if and when we get one)? Sorry for the noobish questions, I'm just horribly uniformed about sound equipment. I know my guitar stuff fairly well, but have never really looked at live sound equipment.

[Matt42]

Re: PA question... powered mixer vs unpowered mixer + power amp?

I should also probably add that our drummer is really quite. He's not a heavy handed punk or metal guy, he's got a nice light country/folk touch. So playing over him isn't much of a concern.