All amp cabs are made the same, why?

[dystrust]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampli...ension-cabinet

I really like this speaker cab design although it's no longer in production. It's still baltic birch, but it sounds pretty close to a traditional 4x12, while being significantly lighter weight and way easier to transport.

My 'big' cabinet is a ported Earcandy Buzzbomb 2x12. It's wide enough for a full size Marshall head and weighs about 55lbs loaded with a pair of Eminence Wizards. With their 103db sensitivity, it's just as loud as the 4x12.

[Ayrton]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Your basic 4x12 cab is a terrible design. Ideally you want to isolate the speaker in the most efficient enclosure. Look at any high end home speaker by comparison.

I have several Marshall 4x12s but they really are unnecessary. What I really plan to build next is a good isolation cabinet that I can fit at least a 2x12 into.

[Boogie Bill]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Some interesting ideas here.

Not all cabs are created equal. The difference is subtle between the standard Mesa cabs and their custom hardwood cabs. Mesa says they sound a little crisper and more focused, and that's what I've noticed on the few I've played. I doubt anyone in the audience could hear a difference.

Pine works, but it is a definite difference than Baltic birch or MDF. And there are issues like how the baffle board is mounted, and its thickness. Are the speakers front- or rear-mounted? Lots of variables.

And the builder has to consider looks (important to many guitarists, whether they'll admit it or not!), durability, weight and costs. Baltic birch makes for a solid, durable cab suitable for touring. It's easy to get, easy to work with, and relatively cost-effective. Could a carbon fiber cab be made at the same cost? Probably not. Injection molded plastic? I love my lightweight Carvin, Peavey and Mackie PA cabs, but they sure don't sound like my wood cabs.

I hate the cheap plastic corners that Marshall uses. The metal corners on the old BF Fender cabs did a much better job of protection. I have to admit, I was a more than a little disappointed when Mesa quit using the metal corners. But I've come to realize that their new leather corners are protective, not only of the cab...but they're a lot easier on doors, jambs and walls than the metal corners. They're inexpensive and easily replaced, too.

My favorite cab varies with the application, but these days I stick with Mesa cabs. I like the 412 Half-Back cabs, and I have two...one with C-90s in the open top and EVMs in the closed bottom while the other is all EVM. I also have one of their 212 Half-Back cabs with the C-90/MS-12 speakers. One reaaon I love the 412s is that they are small. I like the open/closed configuration, and use 112 EVM Thiele cabs with my Mark III and Mark IV combos and the Wide body Thiele with my Mark V. I also have a 212 V30 Horizontal Recto cab. I mostly use it with my 212 Maverick combo for a nice portable half-stack.

It's sometimes best to not get caught up in all the minutiae of construction details of guitars, or cabs. There are always compromises involved. Does it fit your needs, your budget, and does it sound good?

Bill

[ArtieToo]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Great thread. All I can add is that I too, would love to see a true carbon fiber cab. Or maybe fiberglass.

[dr0]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Ayrton nailed it.

I doubt you'll see many (if any) ported 4x12 cabinets because part of the classic 4x12 sound is having the speakers in the wrong spot in a cabinet that isn't the right size.

I think a lot of Randall cabs are ported. It's hard to see in their pictures (black on black will do that.) Here's the 2x12 but the description says the straight 4x12 but not the angled 4x12 in the "Thrasher" series has ports too. The very cheap RG412 also has ports.

[dr0]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Some interesting ideas here.

Not all cabs are created equal. The difference is subtle between the standard Mesa cabs and their custom hardwood cabs. Mesa says they sound a little crisper and more focused, and that's what I've noticed on the few I've played. I doubt anyone in the audience could hear a difference.

My favorite cab varies with the application, but these days I stick with Mesa cabs. I like the 412 Half-Back cabs, and I have two...one with C-90s in the open top and EVMs in the closed bottom while the other is all EVM. .... One reason I love the 412s is that they are small. I like the open/closed configuration, and use 112 EVM Thiele cabs with my Mark III and Mark IV combos and the Wide body Thiele with my Mark V. I also have a 212 V30 Horizontal Recto cab. I mostly use it with my 212 Maverick combo for a nice portable half-stack.

Bill

Quite a few people on the forum seem to like those 1/2 back cabs. I have to hear them sometime.

[PFDarkside]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Great observation, sounds like a new tag line. :-)
A loaded Princeton Reverb, like the original Boogie, *is* a small, dense piece. The 50 watt Mesa's 1x12 combos are about 45lbs in a much smaller package than my Fender Bassman which is also 45 lbs.
People see you moving a Bassman and offer to help, or hold doors. People see you with a Princeton and don't give it a second thought. I'd never try to carry a cased guitar and the Bassman at the same time, Bassman in one hand, but you see people do that will Boogies and other small but heavy / dense small amps all the time.

No wonder they feel heavy, they are! Even stock Princeton's are 35lbs or so! (and that's with the 10")

It’s been a while since I’ve been sigged!

Still a whole lot lighter than my Mesa 2x12 combo, that thing tips the scales at 98lbs. It hasn’t left my basement in 3 years.

[esandes]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

For the first post: correction to the 1960 cab. It's 4x12. The HW series has all metal grab handles including the handle "frame" thing in addition to the heavier gauge wiring. Plus the HW cabs don't have the plastic corner protectors.

Great thread. There are so many variables in cabs that contribute to the tone. One thing I'm just wondering is if there's any difference between mounting a speaker to the back or front of the baffle.

[Ayrton]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

One thing I'm just wondering is if there's any difference between mounting a speaker to the back or front of the baffle.

In the case of Celestions (or any stamped frame speaker) the answer is yes. Front loading can reduce frame flex and that can effect sound. Not good or bad, and may not happen or you hear it.

[dr0]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

It’s been a while since I’ve been sigged!

Still a whole lot lighter than my Mesa 2x12 combo, that thing tips the scales at 98lbs. It hasn’t left my basement in 3 years.

Yes, the good old "everyone has one" Twin is a monster. I had and played with a Fender Twin a long, long time ago.

I absolutely love the sound of my Marshall JCM-800 twin combo, but it doesn't seem to travel well. It's vintage (circa 1982, I looked it up once but forgot), and it's turning into a "never leave the studio" amp once I get it working again. And, it is one of my very favorites, so I was thinking about what to augment it with (if anything)... and I will admit that briefly I was looking at the the JVM205C, which is the 'current production' version of the same amp.
(Obviously a the JVM isn't a JCM) - but it's their current basic 50 watt combo, and it there is some real love for it out there. It's also a cool $2K! (No wonder I never owned a new Marshall).

They say 65lbs, I guess it has "electronic reverb" so maybe that's true. I think they all shade the numbers on the combos! At least it has real handles on the side, like a 4x12 cab. My JCM only has the little strap on top, which is not confidence inspiring.



But then quickly woke up and realized the credo: HEAD + CAB or Small 1x12 combo or maybe a reverbless 4x10 like the Bassman. For portability. NO TWINS!

Sticking to Marshall stuff you could get this sort of set up. (This is the 100 Watt 4 channel, which is even more expensive. This is $3000 set up. Woah!)
Which may take two trips but is lighter:
Head: 48 lbs.
Cab: 46 lbs

[Mincer]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Indeed a great thread. I think the old model of making guitar cabs is outdated, and never served the player well, no matter how cool it might have looked. I think we are ready for some innovation here, with lighter, stronger materials that sound better than conventional wood + tolex designs.

[AlexR]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

It depends on what you want out of sound.
You cannot use HiFi at all as a reference as that is full range and accurate (supposedly) colourless reproduction of input.....as in you want to reproduce something as close as possible to even compared to input.
Guitar has inefficient, poor speakers which further colour a very coloured signal - something we greatly desire. Cab design also is part of this. So much so that speakers are tuned/made to suit the cabs already established as part of a 'grail' setup. Cabs are made to most accentuate something already set in stone tone-wise as desired......its an ouroboros situation.

But adding in extra may not necessarily be 'advancement'. I mean I know the typical knucklehead guitarist cannot see beyond their own nose most of the time.......but surely anyone in a band situation must have at least a small inkling that extra bass in a guitar sound just means more eq adjustment to cater for the bass player's space.

[MetalManiac]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

Roasted Cabs.? You heard it here first. A lot of the vibe of old cabinets is the old premium wood they used to use...i think construction is about the same. For classic 'tone', nothing is ever going to sound better than those old cabinets now aged to perfection, but for modern 'sound', the sky is the limit.

[some_dude]

Re: All amp cabs are made the same, why?

We Musicians are inherently conservative when it comes to how we like to see our instruments built.
Example A: We are the last real holdout for using tubes in electronics (except apparently for the Russian Army, another group not known for embracing the future with both hands).

For many players those new-fangled solid-state amps are still looked at skeptically. (I'll include myself in that group.)
Still, the manufacturers have continued to experiment and innovate and look for ways to improve them, and release models using the technology. The Class D power amps seems to have swept through the world of bass like a tsunami, so much so that the old-standby class AB solid-state amps are referred to as "Lead Sleds" and most companies have stopped manufacturing them.

Bass is a fundamentally different application than guitar.


Studio bass is mostly DI

If you listen to a studio bass tone, typically it's a full range direct inject that's shaped and sculpted with an EQ post-process, then compressed so that it produces an even result. There's typically no amplifier/cabinet involved in the process since the full range direct signal typically produces a better result than a mic on a bass speaker.

Whereas a guitarist might be chasing the sound of a Marshall into a 4x12, a bassist might be chasing the sound of the preamp on an old Neve recording console, or the sound of the transformer in the homemade DI used on all the Motown records, or the sound of a SansAmp Bass Driver DI.

As a result, modern bass amps have evolved in a way that allows bassists to reproduce that studio bass sound in a live environment. Massive headroom, built in high-pass filters, shelving EQs, active EQ's, semi-parametric mids, onboard compression, the ability to blend clean and dirty signals together, etc. Some have minimal colouration since the bassist may prefer to colour his sound with his DI and want's to hear something that's closer to what the PA is outputting than a highly coloured signal like a tube amp and sealed cab would produce.

Additionally, modern bass cabs have evolved to produce a more full range response... horns for the highs, loudspeakers for the mids, and multiple tuned ports to fill out the low end. It allows them to better monitor their sound since it's closer to what the audience will be hearing.

While there's plenty of bassists that dig the classic tube amp into a sealed cab sound (Ampeg SVT into 810e), there's a lot that want a far cleaner, far more full range sound and solid state works great in that application.

Class D isn't replacing tube amps in the bass world... they're replacing heavy/expensive solid state amps with lightweight/cheap solid state amps.


Live bass is mostly DI

Modern PA's have evolved to the point where the bassists amp/cab are basically a really kick ass monitor. While you may see an Ampeg SVT and 810e on stage, what you're typically hearing through the PA is the bassists DI.

This leads to a lot of frustration for bassists; they spend a lot of time/money/effort on getting a great amplified tone that the audience never hears. On stage they have this massive sound with killer punch and overdrive, then they step forward where they can hear the mains and what they hear is thin, clanky clean bass.

As a result, some bassists will spend a lot of time/money/effort on developing a really great DI sound because they want the audience to hear out front what they're hearing on stage. When you've hit the point where all your tone colouration happens in your DI rig, using a heavily coloured classic tube amp and sealed cab is a little counter-productive. Hence the preference by some for clean, high headroom amps with modern, full-range ported cabs.



IMO... the reason guitarists use tube amps and 4x12s isn't because they're a bunch of traditionalists that don't like change... it's because tube amps and 4x12s produce the sound most guitarists want.

And the reason bassists use solid state amps, DI's and modern full range cabs isn't because they're forward thinking and embrace change... it's because solid state amps and modern cabs produce the sound (some) bassists want.