Using A Line Out Box To Go W/D/W

[DarthTangYang]

I've been researching ways to achieve a W/D/W rig for quite a while now and I basically thought I had it quite clear in my mind. The type of W/D/W I have in mind is not strictly the type of W/D/W from the 80's with massive stacks of rack units that probably most guitarists think of when mentioning W/D/W but a simpler, potentially more affordable version.

I first learned about the concept of W/D/W from Dan & Mick on "That Pedal Show" where they described using 3 fairly clean amps with effect pedals achieving any and all effects. So any type of dry effects like overdrive, distortion and fuzz goes first in the effect chain and is created using mainly pedals, ending with an ABY-Splitter with an isolated second output.

One of the signals then goes to the dry amp, so it's 100% dry. The second signal (also with dry effects) goes on through any wet effects (modulations and time based effects like reverb and delay) ending with a stereo delay that allows two signals to go out to two separate amps, creating a wet (or rather moist) stereo setup on each side of the dry amp. These two signals also need to go through some type of isolation box first with the capability to reverse the phase of one of those signals if they should turn out to be out of phase with one another.

So this is basically the setup I've set out to create. I just needed two more amps which I've since aquired. I already had a 100W solid state Hughes & Kettner Vortex Black Series head with a 4X12 cab and I managed to find an identical amp and cab for a bargain (about $140). So the plan was to use these two as the stereo wet part of the setup.

After that I found an Orange TH30 Twin Channel for about $510, which is actually my very first tube amp and I loved the distortion in it. I also bought a Victory V4 Kraken preamp pedal which is also really great. This sits in the FX-Loop of the TH30 so I have 3 different distortion channels and 1 clean to switch between. So I obviously want to be able to use any of these channels and send whichever through my wet effects. So the question was - How and when in the signal chain do I split the signal in order to continue through the wet effects with any of those channels?

I've recently learned that the best way to do this is by routing the signal out through the Speaker Output of the Orange and into the "Speaker Thru" input of a so called "Line Out Box" where the signal is split with one of them being isolated. The second signal goes unaltered straight through the box, out through the "Speaker Thru" output and into the cab, while the isolated signal is brought back to "line level" strength, basically undoing what the power amp did to the signal in order to go into effect pedals without frying them.

So the second dry signal goes through my wet effects, ending with a stereo delay (Boss DD-500) that sends the stereo signal through two cables to my two Hughes & Kettner Vortex's. This (I believe) should achieve what I set out to achieve: A punchy, well defined distortion with the capability to have lots of wet effects without turning to complete mush.

But is there anything in this that you would do different? And if so, how and why? Keep in mind that I aim at using all three amps for whatever setup I end up using.
And does anyone here have any recommendations regarding brands that make good quality Line Out Boxes? I know Suhr has one but it is quite pricey. I don't know, perhaps $225 is a reasonable price to pay for a Line Out Box?

I am open to any and all suggestions, but also keep in mind that I'm a total noob at this so assume I don't know anything about any of this when you explain so that I understand correctly. And I'm not really interested in setting up some extremely complex rig with stacks of racks and devices that costs a fortune. My main goal is to have a true stereo, wet setup through 2 amps, as well as a clear and well defined dry amp in the middle of it all, capable of punching through the wet, trippy effects of the two wet amps.

But like I said, I am open to any and all suggestions.

[PFDarkside]

My man! I was just watching that video today. Here’s my thread, I have not made it to implementation yet as I’ve moved interstate in the meantime.

Let me review and return.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/amplifier-central/6173641-help-me-built-an-evh-style-wet-dry-wet-rig-with-what-i-have

[Mincer]

I think I dig the way Steve Morse still does it...it is a D/W/D rig, with the middle head being only the delay signal being fed from a pedal in the effects loop of the dry amp (100% effect), and he fades in the delay with an expression pedal.

[PFDarkside]

Ok, so you need to make a choice, and you have three:
1. Split the output before the preamps and use each amp’s preamps (I don’t think you want this)
2. Split the signal after the preamps and before the power amp, add the wet effects and use either the H&K amps fully (set clean) or just the power amps.
3. Split the signal off the speaker output, feed the wet effects and use the H&K power amps for the wet cabs.

I think 2b and 3 are the best options, use only the Orange or Victory preamps and use only the H&K power amps. You’ll have to determine how much of your tone is the Orange power amp section and that will determine where you split. You can test this by taking the orange effects loop output and feeding it into the H&K power amp input. (Make sure both amps are connected to speaker cabinets for this as the orange power amp will still be on)

if you split from the effects loop, the Suhr Buffer should work. If you split from the speaker output the Suhr Iso Line Out or the Bray LO-1 Line Out would work.

Both of these are different than the TPS way because they use clean amps and run into the front. Even on the example where they took an iso out from the effects loop of the Mesa, they still ran the wet/“damp” send into the front of the other amps. Preamp into Preamp can get weird, and since all the tone shaping is happening at the Orange/Victory, I think using the power amp only is a better option.

Are you doing series effects for the wet? And just using the internal mixers of the effects for the wet/dry blend?

[jeremy]

thats a lot of stuff to haul around if you are gigging, for whatever thats worth.

jimmy herring has kinda a cool setup, though its only dry/wet. guitar into cranked amp dry, line out from amp into effects set 100% wet (basically just reverb in his case), into ss power amp then speaker cab. he uses a volume pedal to fade in the effects so can adjust to taste on the fly. it works great for him! he also has roadies

[PFDarkside]

thats a lot of stuff to haul around if you are gigging, for whatever thats worth.

jimmy herring has kinda a cool setup, though its only dry/wet. guitar into cranked amp dry, line out from amp into effects set 100% wet (basically just reverb in his case), into ss power amp then speaker cab. he uses a volume pedal to fade in the effects so can adjust to taste on the fly. it works great for him! he also has roadies

In the video OP is referencing, they ended up condensing it into a rig like you are describing with a Mesa vertical 2x12, one speaker dry and the other speaker wet/dry with a volume pedal rolling it in, just like you are describing.

[DarthTangYang]

[QUOTE=PFDarkside;n6219022]Ok, so you need to make a choice, and you have three:
1. Split the output before the preamps and use each amp’s preamps (I don’t think you want this)[/QUOTE

Well, if I understand this option correctly then this was basically what Dan & Mick did. Splitting the signal after any overdrive/dry effect pedals (i.e before any preamps) and running one of those signals into the front of a clean amp (the 100% dry amp) and the other signal running into the wet effects, ending with a stereo delay and then running those two signals to two separate amps (50/50 wet/dry amps).

And this was actually my initial plan for my rig. Getting a clean, pedal platform-type amp and doing just that. For a while I planned to get an Orange Pedalbaby and run either a Friedman BE-OD Deluxe preamp pedal or a Victory V4 Kraken preamp pedal into it. This is why I actually ended up buying the V4 Kraken. But then I changed my mind and ended up buying the Orange TH30 instead and obviously, now I want to use the dirty channels from these two as the base for my tone.

So I will need to run my guitar signal through the Orange/Victory before splitting the signal and from what I’ve understood from the guys over at the AmpGarage.com forum, splitting the signal in the FX-loop is probably not a good idea. According to them there is likely to be some tonal difference between the output of the preamp (at the FX loop out/send) and the output of the power amp, as power amps do have their own tone response and distortion. So the best option is probably to run the signal out through the speaker output and into one of these Line Out Boxes. So basically option no.3.

When it comes to running the wet signals into either the preamps or the FX-loops of the Hughes & Kettner amps I'm not sure. It seem to makes sense to run the signals into their FX-loops since they already are the results of either the Orange or Victory preamp. But this is something I can simply try to see how it sounds when I have everything in place.

[QUOTE=PFDarkside;n6219022]if you split from the effects loop, the Suhr Buffer should work. If you split from the speaker output the Suhr Iso Line Out or the Bray LO-1 Line Out would work.[/QUOTE

I wrote to Palmer today to see if they have a Line Out Box in their product line and apparently they do and it's called "PDI-09 The Junction". But the guy that I wrote to also said that the wet effect pedals will need to "handle a low impedant and balanced line level signal on their input" in order for this to work, which the Boss 500 series doesn't do apparently. So I would need a Re-Amplification Box after the PDI-09. Palmer has one of these called "Trave".

So the question is - would the same be true in regard to the Suhr Line Out Box or the LO-1 Line Out? Would I need a re-amplification box for them as well? And if so, are there any device that can do both?

Are you doing series effects for the wet? And just using the internal mixers of the effects for the wet/dry blend?

The plan is to get an effect switching system, either a Boss ES-8 or a Morningstar ML10X and have all the wet effects (Boss 500 series - MD-500, RV-500 & DD-500) being connected to it, allowing me to controll them with the switcher. So I obviously want to be able to use the parallel routing options in all 3 pedals as much as possible, especially the delay.