ToneX. Game changer or just another gadget?

[Etienne]

you can download for mac or PC: https://www.ikmultimedia.com/product.../#nl_form_area and try for free.
I tried it, didn't like it. Maybe their hardware/pedal version is better...

I've tried the Tonex software too. Didn't really like one of the included/delivered captures. Perhaps because they were all amp setting snapshots I wouldn't exactly dial in.
I didn't do a capture myself. I think I give Tonex another chance. Capture one of my favorite amp gear setups I really love to play.

[Top-L]

Do people who buy the Boss stuff actually use the amp models? I mean, obviously, to some extent, but is that like their main target? I don't know about the newest generation of Boss modelers, but in the past, I think the majority of the people who bought the GT stuff used it as a compliment to their amps. They just happened to have amp models as well if you needed them. But I've always had the impression the Boss GT target market is the people who use the effects with their real amps. Has that changed?

What I mean to say is I don't think Boss is as concerned with competing as much as Line 6. I mean, after all, Amplitube was competing with the Line 6 stuff since the Ampfarm plugin was available for ProTools only.

Ah, those were the days, LOL.

The Boss Gt100 was a MFX processor with preamp models. The models actually sounded really good when run direct to an amplifiers power section. These are the same models in the Katana. The cab sims, OTH, were just passable.

The BOSS GT1000 has much improved cab sims. Before I returned it, I didn't try it out with real amps. The preamp models were not that different from the GT100 and the Katana imo, but there may have been some power amp simulation baked in. I thought the GT1000 modeling was better than the Helix I tried several years ago, but not good enough to keep because the old interface and difficulty of loading IRs. The Zoom G11 was just better imo.

Anyway... back to ToneX discussion. The genie may be out of the bottle. The research has been done and anyone can implement it now, fairly easily. Its just like IRs. Fractal was only one doing IR loading, now everyone can.

I think the next generation of modelers will compete on UI/features, licensed models, harware specification, and number/quality of effects. The models will probably all be based on profiling.

[Rex_Rocker]

Yeah, maybe you liked the models better. I can totally understand that. Tone is a taste thing. But that doesn't really mean their models are better. Or maybe "better" is not the right word, but as advanced, rather.

Take a look at how the Line 6 stuff is way more in-depth, has more tweakable parameters (that are many times the same you have them on the real amp), and after all, Line 6 have done it for more years, and probably spent more resources on getting them where they are now. I'm not sure about how CPU-heavy the models are in either, but if I had to bet, I'd say there's more stuff going on under-the-hood with the Line 6 models. I'm pretty sure I've read they are advertising the Helix as using component-based modelling, much like Fractal. Maybe their algorithms aren't as "good", for a lack of a better term, but they are doing that processing. I don't see any mention of that in the Boss marketing.

Boss' main game has never been the models. At least not until recently. And yeah, maybe they stumbled across something good, but still, they're not as far in as Line 6 is.

But my whole point is not to argue with you like I'm saying the Boss stuff is bad, that you shouldn't like it. What I mean to say is I doubt Boss is as far in as to be concerned about being directly competing with IK.

[Rex_Rocker]

Anyway... back to ToneX discussion. The genie may be out of the bottle. The research has been done and anyone can implement it now, fairly easily. Its just like IRs. Fractal was only one doing IR loading, now everyone can.

I agree. I'd still prefer it if companies spent more resources on getting the modeling tech more advanced rather than following the trend of profiling, but that's just me. Then again, the market is what is going to dictate what direction they go towards next.

But on a side note the IR stuff did become a thing before Fractal jumped on the bandwagon. At least in software plugins. ReValver comes to mind. Fractal's selling point has always been more like the quality of the actual modeling and how powerful their units are in order to run the models they use. If Fractal wanted to move into the profiling game, they could've done it way back already. (Hahaha, sorry to derail the thread, it's just I've been in the modeling game so long, I've become kinda passionate abou it )

[NegativeEase]

Forgive me if I am dubious on IK Multimedia making anything that is a "Game Changer"

Affordable fun stuff... sure.

[Top-L]

Yeah, maybe you liked the models better. I can totally understand that. Tone is a taste thing. But that doesn't really mean their models are better. Or maybe "better" is not the right word, but as advanced, rather.

Take a look at how the Line 6 stuff is way more in-depth, has more tweakable parameters (that are many times the same you have them on the real amp), and after all, Line 6 have done it for more years, and probably spent more resources on getting them where they are now. I'm not sure about how CPU-heavy the models are in either, but if I had to bet, I'd say there's more stuff going on under-the-hood with the Line 6 models. I'm pretty sure I've read they are advertising the Helix as using component-based modelling, much like Fractal. Maybe their algorithms aren't as "good", for a lack of a better term, but they are doing that processing. I don't see any mention of that in the Boss marketing.

Boss' main game has never been the models. At least not until recently. And yeah, maybe they stumbled across something good, but still, they're not as far in as Line 6 is.

But my whole point is not to argue with you like I'm saying the Boss stuff is bad, that you shouldn't like it. What I mean to say is I doubt Boss is as far in as to be concerned about being directly competing with IK.

Boss has been developing MFX processors for.. 40? years now. Same with Zoom. I had a Roland GP100 in 1995 that worked in 4cm with real amps. (It also had a pretty decent 5150 model built in.)

t wasnt until Line6 had the Helix that they could accomplish the same thing. I bought and returned an HD500x because it wasn't a real MFX processor and couldn't properly do 4cm. It was a just a red bean in a floorboard chassis.

Line6 did focus on direct recording devices more than Boss, who always ensured their devices worked with stage gear.

[Top-L]

Forgive me if I am dubious on IK Multimedia making anything that is a "Game Changer"

Affordable fun stuff... sure.

Like I said, some computer scientists published how to use machine learning to profile amps, and now everyone can do it.

[Top-L]

I agree. I'd still prefer it if companies spent more resources on getting the modeling tech more advanced rather than following the trend of profiling, but that's just me. Then again, the market is what is going to dictate what direction they go towards next.

I also agree with models > profiles. I think there will be an integrated approach in the future, where multiple points in the amps behavior are profiled and then performance between those points is interpolated.

I am happy with my cheap Zoom processor, how easily it loads IRs, and how quickly I'm able to dial whatever sound I need. I'm not interested in scouring the internet for the "best profiles". While I think the ToneX is cool, like I said I haven't ordered one yet.

[Rex_Rocker]

Boss has been developing MFX processors for.. 40? years now. Same with Zoom. I had a Roland GP100 in 1995 that worked in 4cm with real amps. (It also had a pretty decent 5150 model built in.)

Oh, yeah. You're totally right. I'd never even dare to question the qualiy in Boss' digital FX quality. I guess I forgot to add the word amp modeling a couple of time in my posts. But I think amp modeling is more directly related to the topic of amp profiling.

I am happy with my cheap Zoom processor, how easily it loads IRs, and how quickly I'm able to dial whatever sound I need. I'm not interested in scouring the internet for the "best profiles". While I think the ToneX is cool, like I said I haven't ordered one yet.

I wouldn't mind it, TBH. I mean, after all, I'm already always on the lookout for the best IR's, because in the end, I feel like a good IR is like 75% of the tone. Much like a well-mic'd well-built cab with good speakers is in the real world. And I've always had better luck with IR's than with any of the modeler's cabs I've used, hardware or plugin.

But there's something romantic about being able to go in and tweak virtual parameters in amp models that you normally can't (at least as in-depth) in profiles because they're just a snapshot of the one tone you dialed the amp for.

I mean, after all, I LOVED swapping tubes, playing with bias, swapping speakers around when I had the luxury of playing loud obnoxious half-stacks, LOL. I don't mind it when that translates (and much cheaper) in the digital world.

[Phantasmagoria]

Just another gadget and a whole lot of internet hype , the usual thing that accompanies the release of any new "game changing" product (= same old, same old + hype). They had the same thing going on when the Quad Cortex came out with everyone & their grand-ma showing you how close to the "real thing" it's profllng was. Now this is the new favor of the month & it's "better".

In the end all these profilers initially take you about 90 per cent of the way , you can tweak to get things even closer and in the end you're pretty damn close. BUT a real tube amp is still a real tube amp and is unreachable..

From alll the demo's I've heard none of these new profilers are any "better" than my Mooer GE300's profiling. They're exactly the same, And the Mooer's standalone profiler (Preamp live) has been around for a few years now doing the same thing this thing does for even less of a price & with the results being the exact same thing from what I hear in the videos...

[Rex_Rocker]

Just another gadget and a whole lot of internet hype , the usual thing that accompanies the release of any new "game changing" product (= same old, same old + hype). They had the same thing going on when the Quad Cortex came out with everyone & their grand-ma showing you how close to the "real thing" it's profllng was. Now this is the new favor of the month & it's "better".

I think the the real "game-changing" stuff about the Tone X is that it's much cheaper than a Kemper of a Quad Cortex, yet can get close to the same quality results. Or at least within the realms of marketing and well-known products.

In the end all these profilers initially take you about 90 per cent of the way , you can tweak to get things even closer and in the end you're pretty damn close. BUT a real tube amp is still a real tube amp and is unreachable..

I think the profilers' selling point is that they can usually get you *closer* to a real amp than most modeling stuff. At least with the Kemper when it first came out, that's what people were saying, some big producers included. Epecially since you're literally cloning the sound of a real amp vs. trying to dial in a modeler as close as you can. The downside is you either have to have the amp, or trust someone did a profile that you are 100% happy with.

From alll the demo's I've heard none of these new profilers are any "better" than my Mooer GE300's profiling. They're exactly the same, And the Mooer's standalone profiler (Preamp live) has been around for a few years now doing the same thing this thing does for even less of a price & with the results being the exact same thing from what I hear in the videos...

Yeah, I guess this Tone X thing is being considered more "game changing" because it's had a lot better marketing and YouTube presence overall. But you're totally right. Just like I said in ahother thread, it's just like when everyone was raving about the Orange Crush like it was the first and only solid state amp to ever sound good just because it was on a lot of YouTube reviews. And the Tone X does have the whole backing (and resources for marketing) of IK Multimedia which have been around for ages.

And the Mooer stuff, I've never really looked into. But the I think the whole Tone X unspoken marketing is kinda like "just like the Kemper (or better), just cheaper".

[Top-L]

And the Tone X does have the whole backing of IK Multimedia which have been around for ages.

IK has a sophisticated web presence and the technical ability to do things with ToneX that NeuralDSP was having problems with. And the pedal only costs $400.

The pedal doesn't include sophisticated FX section and seem geared towards using with another MFX.

My problem with Amplitube was that you have to buy all the different models and they are stuck on your computer. With ToneX I believe it ships with a nice complement of models and you should be able to trade profiles with other users. Not clear how they will further monetize it.

Has anyone said that Amplitube 4 models will run on the ToneX pedal? I could see that happening.

[Rex_Rocker]

I never spent much time with Amplitube, TBH. Back when I tried it, it kinda sucked. POD Farm to me sounded better, and was much easier to use. But maybe that's why I never liked it. I never really spent time dialing it in and getting to know it like I did with the POD Farm/POD XT platform back then.

I think that's another plus (for me) I've always seen with Line 6. They're so commercial, there's lots of documentation and other people's tips and tricks that can help you dial in your tone.

I will say, though, I did absolutely love what I could get out of a couple of the T-Racks modules (which I believe were modeling actual hardware stuff as well).

[Phantasmagoria]

I think the the real "game-changing" stuff about the Tone X is that it's much cheaper than a Kemper of a Quad Cortex, yet can get close to the same quality results. Or at least within the realms of marketing and well-known products.


I think the profilers' selling point is that they can usually get you *closer* to a real amp than most modeling stuff. At least with the Kemper when it first came out, that's what people were saying, some big producers included. Epecially since you're literally cloning the sound of a real amp vs. trying to dial in a modeler as close as you can. The downside is you either have to have the amp, or trust someone did a profile that you are 100% happy with.


Yeah, I guess this Tone X thing is being considered more "game changing" because it's had a lot better marketing and YouTube presence overall. But you're totally right. Just like I said in ahother thread, it's just like when everyone was raving about the Orange Crush like it was the first and only solid state amp to ever sound good just because it was on a lot of YouTube reviews. And the Tone X does have the whole backing of IK Multimedia which have been around for ages.

And the Mooer stuff, I've never really looked into. But the I think the whole Tone X unspoken marketing is kinda like "just like the Kemper (or better), just cheaper".

Yeah exactly right , so personally if I was someone who already had something that profiles amps. I woul'nt get this 'cause everything I hear tells me their profiles are no different/better/worse than what, for instance, my Mooer does.

But if I did'nt already own a profiling modeler. that's when my interest in it would be piqued, strictly based on the price & not because I was hearing anything that was "better" or "closer". Which brings me back to what I (& you) said before ..it's looks like a decent product backed by a whole lot of marketing/internet hype