Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

[Jacew]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

Look, it all depends on what YOU want to end up with and you have one of three choices:
1. If you want the best, longest lasting finish with the least amount of work use the Warmoth unfinished body,
2. If you want to save money (but invest a lot of time and effort) and end up with a great long lasting finish strip and sand the Squire down to bare wood then finish it,
3. If you want so save money AND save time and work and don't care about the finish easily chipping off, OR if you want to end up with a relic finish, just lightly sand the Squire and paint over top of the existing finish.

You see, no matter what anyone has said, NO finishing material (lacquer, polyester urethane, enamel) will stick very well to the existing finish on the Squire.

Your choice.

Acryl will.

[ItsaBass]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

Lots of things will mechanically adhere to poly undercoating just fine. For one, Fender has been doing it ("it" being poly sealer) since the early '80s with their lacquer finished instruments. And before that, they used Fullerplast back to 1963, which is a thick, plasticky, catalyzed material that served as a combo grain filler and sealer. Additionally, six years ago, I did a Surf Green lacquer refin of my bandmate's Epi Wilshire (set neck) leaving the stock matte black poly intact. It has been kept in a gig bag (i.e. abrasive to the edges of the instrument) and gigged regularly. One small chip so far, on the tip of the headstock, and the impact would have chipped any finish.

A Squier body is not worth the labor of stripping, and not only that, but the stock finish is an excellent sealer, so you don't need to grain fill or seal. You're talking a HUGE labor savings for a result that is near indistinguishable from stripping first. Sand the stock finish evenly, first with steel wool, then with 320 or 400 dry paper. Use a primer next – one that is designed to go with your selected color coats.

And finally, even if you do lose some of your new finish over the years, that won't necessarily look bad. Some of the most coveted examples of real-life Fender relics are the ones on which one color has worn down to reveal another. In the '70s, Fender from time to time would spray black lacquer over a completed (but flawed) sunburst body (i.e. poly). These are incredibly sought after, and not always worn through.

In an ideal situation, of course you strip first. But it's just a Squier. Save yourself several days of work, and have a perfectly acceptable result, by just using what's there as your perfectly smooth and level filler/sealer.

[Jacew]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

Lots of things will mechanically adhere to poly undercoating just fine. For one, Fender has been doing it ("it" being poly sealer) since the early '80s with their lacquer finished instruments. And before that, they used Fullerplast back to 1963, which is a thick, plasticky, catalyzed material that served as a combo grain filler and sealer. Additionally, six years ago, I did a Surf Green lacquer refin of my bandmate's Epi Wilshire (set neck) leaving the stock matte black poly intact. It has been kept in a gig bag (i.e. abrasive to the edges of the instrument) and gigged regularly. One small chip so far, on the tip of the headstock, and the impact would have chipped any finish.

A Squier body is not worth the labor of stripping, and not only that, but the stock finish is an excellent sealer, so you don't need to grain fill or seal. You're talking a HUGE labor savings for a result that is near indistinguishable from stripping first. Sand the stock finish evenly, first with steel wool, then with 320 or 400 dry paper. Use a primer next – one that is designed to go with your selected color coats.

And finally, even if you do lose some of your new finish over the years, that won't necessarily look bad. Some of the most coveted examples of real-life Fender relics are the ones on which one color has worn down to reveal another. In the '70s, Fender from time to time would spray black lacquer over a completed (but flawed) sunburst body (i.e. poly). These are incredibly sought after, and not always worn through.

Why steel wool? Wouldn't just rougher paper be much cleaner and do the same job?

[ICTGoober]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

DON'T USE STEEL WOOL. Use Scotchbrite. It's not magnetic, it doesn't break into tiny crumbs that get into every crevice, and it won't hurt your fingers. The best - it won't rust.

[ehdwuld]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

Scotchbrite
I'm with Goob

[ItsaBass]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

Why steel wool? Wouldn't just rougher paper be much cleaner and do the same job?

The steel wool is a quick, cheap, and effective pre-sanding step just to give you a smooth matte finish. It'll sand better that way.

Scotchbrite will have the same result, but steel wool is effective and dirt cheap, and I've not once experienced an issue with it. Plus, doesn't every garage already have a lifetime supply of it sitting around?

I'm not emotionally connected to one or the other. Just so you do something other than going straight to 320/400 dry paper on gloss poly.

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

To all who think that anything will stick to that finish, go ahead and do it and let me know how it works out for you in 5 years. I've been painting for well over 60 years and NO finish sticks to that finish (polyester, urethane, etc) as well as to bare wood. Sealers are chemically designed to adhere to the finish coats added on top of it. A finish coat like poly is chemically designed to cure hard and to prevent anything from sticking to it. Yes, mechanical adhesion is improved by sanding the poly, but you will NOT get a very good connection and you will NOT get ANY chemical bond.

Like I said earlier...this IS an option. It will save you lots of time, lots of work, and lots of money, but it will NOT be as good as starting from bare wood.

[ItsaBass]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

You wanted to be shown guitars over five years old that were some kind of finish held on to the sealer coat by mechanical adhesion only. Open your eyes; they are all around you, including on some of the most sought after guitars of all time.

Every Fender American made reissue going back to the early '80s (with the exception of the brief American Vintage line from late 2012 through 2017) is lacquer over poly sealer. In other words, the Vintage Series, AVRI Series, and AO series (but not the AV Series) all did this. Road Worn Series, Highway One Series, perhaps others as well. Aside from the 2013–2017 AV line and certain Custom Shop reissues, nnything Fender has done since about 1980, poly or lacquer, has had a poly sealer underneath it – i.e. mechanical adhesion of subsequent coats to the sealer.

Every Fender from 1963 to 1980 used a catalyzed varnish sealer (i.e. not a solvent based finish) called Fullerplast, to which there was zero chemical adhesion by the subsequent coats – all mechanical. '63 to '67 put all lacquer over the Fullerplast. '68 to '80 put lacquer over it for sunbursts, and then poly clear went over that. Non burst colors '68 to '80 were two coats of poly over the Fullerplast (one color, one clear). Some custom colors still used their original acrylic lacquer over the Fullerplast, with poly on top of that!

Poly finished guitars are usually poly color and clear over poly sealer as well. No chemical adhesion there!

And as mentioned, I did lacquer over the stock poly on a set neck guitar for my bandmate more than five years ago.

By sheer production numbers, most guitars ever made have been something over a poly sealer, with zero chemical adhesion between the sealer and subsequent coats.

How do you think modern car paints work, other than by mechanical adhesion? The auto and auto paint industries aren't using solvent based car finishes except on perfect vintage restorations, and haven't been doing so in any real quantities for over 50 years.

I also notice how you are backing away from your original statements by adding "as well as to bare wood." Well, that is a given. That was never in dispute. The issue is whether painting over poly is highly problematic in any way, not whether or not it sticks better than it does to wood.

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

By sheer production numbers, most guitars ever made have been something over a poly sealer, with zero chemical adhesion between the sealer and subsequent coats.

You didn't read my post? Sealers, whether poly, lacquer, or shellac, are designed to adhere to whatever is applied on top of them to an extent. They are not at all like a poly finish coat. But to increase adhesion to that finish coat, sanding helps and a coat of shellac also helps.

How do you think modern car paints work, other than by mechanical adhesion? The auto and auto paint industries aren't using solvent based car finishes except on perfect vintage restorations, and haven't been doing so in any real quantities for over 50 years.

You are correct. Modern car paints are a catalysed finish which is designed to have the same modulus of elasticity as the metal it covers. It is very durable and resistant to scratching and chipping. But if you have ever seen a car that had a dent which exceeded those specific parameters, you will have noticed that the paint actually had very little chemical adhesion to the primer and it easily peels off in large pieces. The paint on cars is not dependent so much on chemical adhesion. Every "paint" is designed for its specific purpose and when used properly they work very well. But there is no panacea. They all have their drawbacks.

I also notice how you are backing away from your original statements by adding "as well as to bare wood." Well, that is a given. That was never in dispute. The issue is whether painting over poly is highly problematic in any way, not whether or not it sticks better than it does to wood.

What are you talking about? I'm not backing away from ANYTHING I've said. Read all of my posts again. In every single one I have maintained that the best finish is going to come from proper painting on bare wood, but that finishing over the existing paint can be ok, and will save time, money, and elbow grease, but won't be as good (unless you're going for a relic finish...in which case paint that easily chips off and leaves another underlying color/finish may be desirable).

I'm not trying to give the impression that I know it all, I don't. And I'm still learning a lot. But of which I have spoken about in this thread...you can take it to the bank. You just have to read it correctly.