Vitamin Q 0.022

[Big Flannel]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

This thread is no longer about capacitors and should be closed. Everything that was worth saying on the subject was said several pages back.

I've ordered a few capacitors of varying types, and I plan to try out some tests to see if I can find any objective differences.

Good.

[darthphineas]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Good.

K.


Sent from my armored space station via iPad using Tapatalk

[Securb]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

This thread is no longer about capacitors and should be closed. Everything that was worth saying on the subject was said several pages back.

I've ordered a few capacitors of varying types, and I plan to try out some tests to see if I can find any objective differences.

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

OH THE INHUMANITY! OH THE IMAGE MACROS!

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Suddenly my outrageous investment of maybe $10 per guitar is looking like the investment of the millenium ....

because my guitars sound better ? I don't know. The real value is that i don't have to get caught up in stuff like this. To be honest, that's got to be worth at least $100 per guitar.

Here's a possibility. Let's give our tone scientist friend a bunch of Sprague Vitamin Q PIO caps, one for each of his guitars. FREE ! He won't have to pay a cent for them. If he needs them installed, a nearby forum member can do that for him. Then let's see what he has to say. Whether he hears any differences or not, i'd be interested to see if the attitude changed.

Lemme just say this.

HAMISH SYNDROME.

(does he have a fluffy moustache ?)

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

In theory, the tonal goodness would owe to what the capacitor doesn't send to ground, but I think the fact of knowing you're putting a big, more expensive, vintage correct and/or more attractive electrical component in your guitar does far more to inform perception than the actual sound differences.

If there really is a difference, I just wish the people who claim there is a difference could do better than "I definitely hear a a difference!" and explain a) what the difference is, and b) the technical nature of the difference, because then we could at least agree that there is a difference at all, and move on to the more mundane issue of whether that difference is worth $5.

I've ordered a few capacitors of varying types, and I plan to try out some tests to see if I can find any objective differences.

It took you eight pages to get to that.

[beaubrummels]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

If there really is a difference, I just wish the people who claim there is a difference could do better than "I definitely hear a a difference!" and explain a) what the difference is, and b) the technical nature of the difference

It took you eight pages to get to that.

You know what gets me, I answered a) and b) on page 1, post #4.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?278492-Vitamin-Q-0-022&p=3681317&viewfull=1#post3681317

[LesStrat]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

You know what gets me, I answered a) and b) on page 1, post #4.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...=1#post3681317

It's nice to see that once in a while we work our way back to capacitors...

The problem I found with the cheap ceramics is that they don't discharge consistently, so effectively the value is constantly changing, which in turn does something really muddy to the resulting sound. In my testing, it somehow managed to blur detail in the notes of chords being played.

So basically I throw them out, not because they are ceramic, but because they are practically defective.

I did pass by that a little too quick the first time. You seem to be certain as to both the symptom and cause. How did you identify that inconsistent electrical discharge was the underlying problem? What sort of physical defect in a ceramic cap would lead to this problem?

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Suddenly my outrageous investment of maybe $10 per guitar is looking like the investment of the millenium ....The real value is that i don't have to get caught up in stuff like this. To be honest, that's got to be worth at least $100 per guitar.

You can avoid getting caught up in this... FOR FREE!

[beaubrummels]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

It's nice to see that once in a while we work our way back to capacitors...



I did pass by that a little too quick the first time. You seem to be certain as to both the symptom and cause. How did you identify that inconsistent electrical discharge was the underlying problem? What sort of physical defect in a ceramic cap would lead to this problem?

I have a meter that measures capacitance. When the inexpensive ceramics were hooked up and left over a period of several minutes it never read a consistent value the entire time. All the other types (and I had the Vitamin Qs, Black Bees, Orange drops, etc.) all the others when left hooked up to the meter for several minutes or more read a stable value throughout the measuring period. Even generic electronic store brand mylar pills were stable. I tried at least 4 of each type of cap, sometimes 6 or more.

I did not disassemble, smash or reverse engineer any caps to determine root cause because the caps that were not performing were less than $1 each. It's not worth it to me to know. I think it's the manufacturers problem to figure out why they aren't working. As for me, I simply learned what I needed to know as far as electronic performance - which is the lowest-end components were not electrically stable so I will not use them. But every other type and quality seemed to perform electronically the same.

I also measured all the caps I had and found one of each type that was within the tightest tolerance I could get, not more than 5% at the extreme. I wired them on a 6-way in a project box with a pot (making a normal tone control) and went from my pickup leads, straight to the box, to a couple different amps and played with each cap for a while to see if I noticed anything. Below is the last test box I made (I did this a couple times with different caps and setups - .47uf plus 250k pot, .22uf plus 500k pot, etc.)



I also tried bridging each sample cap from the hot lead to ground straight off the pickup leads and to a cable straight into an amplifier I was familiar with, just to hear if there was any difference due to cap alone. I tried a couple different guitar amplifiers that I knew well so I could tell what the cap was contributing to the sound.

The only sonic difference in stable caps I could correlate was that higher values led to darker tone or lower corner frequency when the tone control was turned all the way down, or when the cap was bridged directly to ground. The inexpensive ceramics, however, caused some lack of clarity - when I played chords, the notes in the middle of the chord were noticeably 'blurry', muddy, indistinct - yet I could flip the switch and hear note definition through the dark tone with all the other caps. That's my experience. I couldn't find any other significant factors to correlate the problem to other than the inconsistent discharge of the cap.

If anyone thinks my method was not sound or scientific, I don't really care because I was not trying to answer the question for all mankind. I was just trying to learn enough to get my guitar to sound the way I need it when I need it, and on that front - mission accomplished. Anyone else is perfectly welcome to post their own experiment, experience and results, and even uncover flaws that I didn't discover.

[jumble jumble]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

That's why some of us would spend $20 in a cap. All we want is the very best for our ladies, even if it doesn't make any noticeable difference.

If there's no noticeable difference, how do you know it's the best? Just because it's more expensive? That's not always reliable - a $10 PVC overcoat is better in the rain than a $2000 suede coat. If what you mean is "all we want is the most expensive for our ladies" then that's fair enough of course. But if all the different types of capacitor were the same price, how would you know which was best? Brings me back to the diamond-encrusted pot idea. Nobody addressed that - would you buy a diamond-encrusted pot? After all, you want the best, right?

We tried.

I don't really believe this. For a person to successfully be "argumentative", people have to argue back. I've never seen a thread where people have let DreX have the last word. They simply cannot allow what he says to stand. The problem is, once they've had their say, they get frustrated when DreX replies to it. They think that they should get the last word, and not DreX, and when he replies, they have to reply again to try to have it. Of course, DreX is doing the same thing by not letting them have the last word either. But if DreX posted in a thread, and then the thread went dead, he would not be called "argumentative" because no argument would happen. But as I say, people can't bear to let his opinion stand.

This whole thing about "opinion" is a bit off-base too. Yes, you have the right to an opinion. People should respect that right. You do not have the right to have your opinion go unchallenged. If, to give an easy example, your opinion is that 2+2=5, I respect your right to hold that opinion, but I sure as hell don't respect the opinion itself. And if you state it on a public forum, even if you do make clear that it is simply an opinion, you should not be surprised if someone challenges it or explains its flaws. (Please note that I am not saying that anyone here has an opinion that is as clear-cut wrong as 2+2=5).

The real value is that i don't have to get caught up in stuff like this. To be honest, that's got to be worth at least $100 per guitar.

This is an odd justification - so much so that actually, I have to assume it's only meant as a joke. I don't usually get caught up in threads like this, I made an exception this time, and I'm not sure why. But it hasn't cost me $10 per guitar to ignore those threads. I just ignore them for free, and I honestly couldn't tell you what type of capacitor, or even what value, is in any of my guitars. I could make a rough guess and say it'll either be .022 or .047, and it'll be either ceramic disc or orange drop. The only one I have a pretty good idea of is that Tele, which has the polyester layer PCB cap in it, and I think that's a .022. And of course there are thousands of players who don't get caught up in this stuff, happily playing away with the stock capacitors in their guitars.

[Myaccount876]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

I did pass by that a little too quick the first time. You seem to be certain as to both the symptom and cause. How did you identify that inconsistent electrical discharge was the underlying problem? What sort of physical defect in a ceramic cap would lead to this problem?

With the derivative of f(x)=3x³-5x²+7x+9.5:

(d/dx)(3x³-5x²+7x+9.5)
= (d/dx)(3x³)+(d/dx)(-5x²)+(d/dx)(7x)+(d/x)(9.5)
(d/dx)(3x³) = 9x²
(d/dx)(-5x²) = -10x
(d/dx)(7x) = 7
(d/dx)(9.5) = 0
(d/dx)(3x³-5x²+7x+9.5) = 9x²-10x+7

I found 9x²-10x+7, which indicates that while the changing variable of discharge occured, beaubrummels is allowed to have his own opinion, that he never tried to pass off as scientific and factual, without having to answer stupid questions and meet demands from overly-argumentative members.

[jumble jumble]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Actually, Beau already gave an intelligent answer to that question, rather than a cheap shot. According to you, these are "stupid questions":

How did you identify that inconsistent electrical discharge was the underlying problem? What sort of physical defect in a ceramic cap would lead to this problem?

And yet, Beau answered them with intelligent, useful replies, without getting snippy.

Somehow my reply to his post got lost:

Beau, that experiment is awesome. Well done for actually testing this stuff out for yourself. The only thing I would have done differently is not to label the switch, so that I could be sure my own expectations weren't skewing anything. The stuff about chord articulation is interesting and I'd be interested to do more investigation into that. Obviously I realise you don't need to do any more investigation, I'm just saying that if we wanted to try and work out what was going on, that would be a possible avenue.

[DreX]

Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

I have a meter that measures capacitance. When the inexpensive ceramics were hooked up and left over a period of several minutes it never read a consistent value the entire time. All the other types (and I had the Vitamin Qs, Black Bees, Orange drops, etc.) all the others when left hooked up to the meter for several minutes or more read a stable value throughout the measuring period. Even generic electronic store brand mylar pills were stable. I tried at least 4 of each type of cap, sometimes 6 or more.

I did not disassemble, smash or reverse engineer any caps to determine root cause because the caps that were not performing were less than $1 each. It's not worth it to me to know. I think it's the manufacturers problem to figure out why they aren't working. As for me, I simply learned what I needed to know as far as electronic performance - which is the lowest-end components were not electrically stable so I will not use them. But every other type and quality seemed to perform electronically the same.

I also measured all the caps I had and found one of each type that was within the tightest tolerance I could get, not more than 5% at the extreme. I wired them on a 6-way in a project box with a pot (making a normal tone control) and went from my pickup leads, straight to the box, to a couple different amps and played with each cap for a while to see if I noticed anything. Below is the last test box I made (I did this a couple times with different caps and setups - .47uf plus 250k pot, .22uf plus 500k pot, etc.)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55924[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55925[/ATTACH]

I also tried bridging each sample cap from the hot lead to ground straight off the pickup leads and to a cable straight into an amplifier I was familiar with, just to hear if there was any difference due to cap alone. I tried a couple different guitar amplifiers that I knew well so I could tell what the cap was contributing to the sound.

The only sonic difference in stable caps I could correlate was that higher values led to darker tone or lower corner frequency when the tone control was turned all the way down, or when the cap was bridged directly to ground. The inexpensive ceramics, however, caused some lack of clarity - when I played chords, the notes in the middle of the chord were noticeably 'blurry', muddy, indistinct - yet I could flip the switch and hear note definition through the dark tone with all the other caps. That's my experience. I couldn't find any other significant factors to correlate the problem to other than the inconsistent discharge of the cap.

If anyone thinks my method was not sound or scientific, I don't really care because I was not trying to answer the question for all mankind. I was just trying to learn enough to get my guitar to sound the way I need it when I need it, and on that front - mission accomplished. Anyone else is perfectly welcome to post their own experiment, experience and results, and even uncover flaws that I didn't discover.

Thanks a lot for all these details, and the pics. It's fun to see what kinds of experiments people are trying, and how they turn out.

What was the meter you were using for measuring capacitance?

A common problem with caps is that they will have a short, or they "bleed" current across their dielectric. In fact, I can't even find reference to any other kind of common problems that occur with the type of ceramic caps used in electric guitars, outside of the usual tolerance issues. According to this guy http://www.aqdi.com/tonecap.htm a bleed / short in a cap is the same as running the cap in parallel with a resistor. In theory, this would decrease volume, because current is being bled out through the cap like a volume control, and it might further attenuate highs, but I don't know what happens for sure, not knowing a) the physical nature of a short, and b) not having had a shorted/bleeding cap on hand to test with. There could be other factors involved that are not immediately obvious that could potentially produce the results you're describing.

What I'd like to try with pickups and caps is measuring the slew rate with a function generator, at various amplitudes, which would relate to pick attack and other things. Maybe I could get more info on this with Google right away, but most electronic talk deals with active electronics and high voltages, so information on how these components react in passive circuits at low voltages not as readily available. I also just like having an excuse to play with electronics.