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Vitamin Q 0.022
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Originally Posted by DreX
I don't mean to be a jerk, but some people bring out my compartmentalized rage, and I think that's their idea of victory. I wouldn't bother asking people to be civil on the internet though, just hide them in my basement and move on. Call the authorities any time you feel it necessary.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by DreX View PostThis thread is no longer about capacitors and should be closed. Everything that was worth saying on the subject was said several pages back.
I've ordered a few capacitors of varying types, and I plan to try out some tests to see if I can find any objective differences.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
OH THE INHUMANITY! OH THE IMAGE MACROS!Custom neck-thru strat
1989 MIJ 1962 RI Strat
1995 PRS CE24
D'avanzo #8
Breedlove Solo Concert
1996 USA Dean Baby Z
1991 40th Anniversary Les Paul
1968 Fender Bassman, Egnater SW45, Mesa Mark IIB Coliseum, Mesa ElectraDyne 1x12 Combo, Avatar 4x12, Mesa half back 4x12 Earcandy 2x12
Roland RE-201 Space Echo, 70's Fender Reverb Unit
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Suddenly my outrageous investment of maybe $10 per guitar is looking like the investment of the millenium ....
because my guitars sound better ? I don't know. The real value is that i don't have to get caught up in stuff like this. To be honest, that's got to be worth at least $100 per guitar.
Here's a possibility. Let's give our tone scientist friend a bunch of Sprague Vitamin Q PIO caps, one for each of his guitars. FREE ! He won't have to pay a cent for them. If he needs them installed, a nearby forum member can do that for him. Then let's see what he has to say. Whether he hears any differences or not, i'd be interested to see if the attitude changed.
Lemme just say this.
HAMISH SYNDROME.
(does he have a fluffy moustache ?)Lumbering dinosaur (what's a master volume control?)
STALKER NO STALKING !
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by DreX View PostIn theory, the tonal goodness would owe to what the capacitor doesn't send to ground, but I think the fact of knowing you're putting a big, more expensive, vintage correct and/or more attractive electrical component in your guitar does far more to inform perception than the actual sound differences.
If there really is a difference, I just wish the people who claim there is a difference could do better than "I definitely hear a a difference!" and explain a) what the difference is, and b) the technical nature of the difference, because then we could at least agree that there is a difference at all, and move on to the more mundane issue of whether that difference is worth $5.I've ordered a few capacitors of varying types, and I plan to try out some tests to see if I can find any objective differences.sigpic
- http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=804435 -
- https://soundcloud.com/mr-ds-bigband/tracks -
Warning: May contain traces of NUTS
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by DreXIf there really is a difference, I just wish the people who claim there is a difference could do better than "I definitely hear a a difference!" and explain a) what the difference is, and b) the technical nature of the differenceOriginally posted by GoldenVulture View PostIt took you eight pages to get to that.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Romans 3:23; 6:23; 5:8; 10:13; 10:9-10
Teknon Theou
https://youtube.com/channel/UCo848I2...e4jKB5DNZ4Y7hs
Complaining that there are hypocrites in church is like complaining that fat people use the gym. Where else would you have them be?
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by beaubrummels View PostYou know what gets me, I answered a) and b) on page 1, post #4.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...=1#post3681317
Originally posted by beaubrummels View PostThe problem I found with the cheap ceramics is that they don't discharge consistently, so effectively the value is constantly changing, which in turn does something really muddy to the resulting sound. In my testing, it somehow managed to blur detail in the notes of chords being played.
So basically I throw them out, not because they are ceramic, but because they are practically defective.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by crusty philtrum View PostSuddenly my outrageous investment of maybe $10 per guitar is looking like the investment of the millenium ....The real value is that i don't have to get caught up in stuff like this. To be honest, that's got to be worth at least $100 per guitar.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by DreX View PostIt's nice to see that once in a while we work our way back to capacitors...
I did pass by that a little too quick the first time. You seem to be certain as to both the symptom and cause. How did you identify that inconsistent electrical discharge was the underlying problem? What sort of physical defect in a ceramic cap would lead to this problem?
I did not disassemble, smash or reverse engineer any caps to determine root cause because the caps that were not performing were less than $1 each. It's not worth it to me to know. I think it's the manufacturers problem to figure out why they aren't working. As for me, I simply learned what I needed to know as far as electronic performance - which is the lowest-end components were not electrically stable so I will not use them. But every other type and quality seemed to perform electronically the same.
I also measured all the caps I had and found one of each type that was within the tightest tolerance I could get, not more than 5% at the extreme. I wired them on a 6-way in a project box with a pot (making a normal tone control) and went from my pickup leads, straight to the box, to a couple different amps and played with each cap for a while to see if I noticed anything. Below is the last test box I made (I did this a couple times with different caps and setups - .47uf plus 250k pot, .22uf plus 500k pot, etc.)
I also tried bridging each sample cap from the hot lead to ground straight off the pickup leads and to a cable straight into an amplifier I was familiar with, just to hear if there was any difference due to cap alone. I tried a couple different guitar amplifiers that I knew well so I could tell what the cap was contributing to the sound.
The only sonic difference in stable caps I could correlate was that higher values led to darker tone or lower corner frequency when the tone control was turned all the way down, or when the cap was bridged directly to ground. The inexpensive ceramics, however, caused some lack of clarity - when I played chords, the notes in the middle of the chord were noticeably 'blurry', muddy, indistinct - yet I could flip the switch and hear note definition through the dark tone with all the other caps. That's my experience. I couldn't find any other significant factors to correlate the problem to other than the inconsistent discharge of the cap.
If anyone thinks my method was not sound or scientific, I don't really care because I was not trying to answer the question for all mankind. I was just trying to learn enough to get my guitar to sound the way I need it when I need it, and on that front - mission accomplished. Anyone else is perfectly welcome to post their own experiment, experience and results, and even uncover flaws that I didn't discover.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by Mathías Gabriel Rock View PostThat's why some of us would spend $20 in a cap. All we want is the very best for our ladies, even if it doesn't make any noticeable difference.
Originally posted by jon the art guy View PostWe tried.
This whole thing about "opinion" is a bit off-base too. Yes, you have the right to an opinion. People should respect that right. You do not have the right to have your opinion go unchallenged. If, to give an easy example, your opinion is that 2+2=5, I respect your right to hold that opinion, but I sure as hell don't respect the opinion itself. And if you state it on a public forum, even if you do make clear that it is simply an opinion, you should not be surprised if someone challenges it or explains its flaws. (Please note that I am not saying that anyone here has an opinion that is as clear-cut wrong as 2+2=5).
Originally posted by crusty philtrum View PostThe real value is that i don't have to get caught up in stuff like this. To be honest, that's got to be worth at least $100 per guitar.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by DreX View PostI did pass by that a little too quick the first time. You seem to be certain as to both the symptom and cause. How did you identify that inconsistent electrical discharge was the underlying problem? What sort of physical defect in a ceramic cap would lead to this problem?
(d/dx)(3x3-5x2+7x+9.5)
= (d/dx)(3x3)+(d/dx)(-5x2)+(d/dx)(7x)+(d/x)(9.5)
(d/dx)(3x3) = 9x2
(d/dx)(-5x2) = -10x
(d/dx)(7x) = 7
(d/dx)(9.5) = 0
(d/dx)(3x3-5x2+7x+9.5) = 9x2-10x+7
I found 9x2-10x+7, which indicates that while the changing variable of discharge occured, beaubrummels is allowed to have his own opinion, that he never tried to pass off as scientific and factual, without having to answer stupid questions and meet demands from overly-argumentative members.Last edited by Myaccount876; 07-23-2014, 02:07 AM.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Actually, Beau already gave an intelligent answer to that question, rather than a cheap shot. According to you, these are "stupid questions":
How did you identify that inconsistent electrical discharge was the underlying problem? What sort of physical defect in a ceramic cap would lead to this problem?
Somehow my reply to his post got lost:
Beau, that experiment is awesome. Well done for actually testing this stuff out for yourself. The only thing I would have done differently is not to label the switch, so that I could be sure my own expectations weren't skewing anything. The stuff about chord articulation is interesting and I'd be interested to do more investigation into that. Obviously I realise you don't need to do any more investigation, I'm just saying that if we wanted to try and work out what was going on, that would be a possible avenue.Last edited by jumble jumble; 07-23-2014, 02:36 AM.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by beaubrummels View PostI have a meter that measures capacitance. When the inexpensive ceramics were hooked up and left over a period of several minutes it never read a consistent value the entire time. All the other types (and I had the Vitamin Qs, Black Bees, Orange drops, etc.) all the others when left hooked up to the meter for several minutes or more read a stable value throughout the measuring period. Even generic electronic store brand mylar pills were stable. I tried at least 4 of each type of cap, sometimes 6 or more.
I did not disassemble, smash or reverse engineer any caps to determine root cause because the caps that were not performing were less than $1 each. It's not worth it to me to know. I think it's the manufacturers problem to figure out why they aren't working. As for me, I simply learned what I needed to know as far as electronic performance - which is the lowest-end components were not electrically stable so I will not use them. But every other type and quality seemed to perform electronically the same.
I also measured all the caps I had and found one of each type that was within the tightest tolerance I could get, not more than 5% at the extreme. I wired them on a 6-way in a project box with a pot (making a normal tone control) and went from my pickup leads, straight to the box, to a couple different amps and played with each cap for a while to see if I noticed anything. Below is the last test box I made (I did this a couple times with different caps and setups - .47uf plus 250k pot, .22uf plus 500k pot, etc.)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]55924[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]55925[/ATTACH]
I also tried bridging each sample cap from the hot lead to ground straight off the pickup leads and to a cable straight into an amplifier I was familiar with, just to hear if there was any difference due to cap alone. I tried a couple different guitar amplifiers that I knew well so I could tell what the cap was contributing to the sound.
The only sonic difference in stable caps I could correlate was that higher values led to darker tone or lower corner frequency when the tone control was turned all the way down, or when the cap was bridged directly to ground. The inexpensive ceramics, however, caused some lack of clarity - when I played chords, the notes in the middle of the chord were noticeably 'blurry', muddy, indistinct - yet I could flip the switch and hear note definition through the dark tone with all the other caps. That's my experience. I couldn't find any other significant factors to correlate the problem to other than the inconsistent discharge of the cap.
If anyone thinks my method was not sound or scientific, I don't really care because I was not trying to answer the question for all mankind. I was just trying to learn enough to get my guitar to sound the way I need it when I need it, and on that front - mission accomplished. Anyone else is perfectly welcome to post their own experiment, experience and results, and even uncover flaws that I didn't discover.
What was the meter you were using for measuring capacitance?
A common problem with caps is that they will have a short, or they "bleed" current across their dielectric. In fact, I can't even find reference to any other kind of common problems that occur with the type of ceramic caps used in electric guitars, outside of the usual tolerance issues. According to this guy http://www.aqdi.com/tonecap.htm a bleed / short in a cap is the same as running the cap in parallel with a resistor. In theory, this would decrease volume, because current is being bled out through the cap like a volume control, and it might further attenuate highs, but I don't know what happens for sure, not knowing a) the physical nature of a short, and b) not having had a shorted/bleeding cap on hand to test with. There could be other factors involved that are not immediately obvious that could potentially produce the results you're describing.
What I'd like to try with pickups and caps is measuring the slew rate with a function generator, at various amplitudes, which would relate to pick attack and other things. Maybe I could get more info on this with Google right away, but most electronic talk deals with active electronics and high voltages, so information on how these components react in passive circuits at low voltages not as readily available. I also just like having an excuse to play with electronics.
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