Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I also doubt many will buy the Zebro simply because 3+3 designs are already available from other winders, and SD even lists one, but not only do they attract little attention, nobody voting for the Zebro has apperently ever even tried one and reported to us on how they sound. I think some people like the idea that its a forum pickup more than they like the pickup for what it actually is.

[Maggot]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Of course it won't. You wouldn't be able fit that much wire in it. But if you can get close, you're gold.

If it sounds great, which it will, and more like a P-90 than a Bluesbucker or Dream 180, which is setting the bar pretty low IMHO, people will like it.

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

To reiterate, the Zebro cant and won't actually sound like a P-90 due to the geometry of the design. The P-90 thing is just a target sound, or relative output level.

I don't buy this because I suspect the folks in the custom shop can get the right output and voice. I for one, am not about to say that I know what MJ and company can't do.

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The low interest has bothered me from the beginning. It's only gotten worse. I'll take some blame for having bad polls and whatnot but I always tried to do what I thought was best. 35 votes for either, and how many will actually put their money on the table when the time comes? Right now, I'm once again searching out threads from the old designs. The last poll for the Fuglybucker had around 70 total votes too. By comparison, several polls from the crazy 8 had 150-175 votes.

To be fair, the Crazy 8 was only a bridge which meant a total of about 150 pickups maybe? That was also at a fiscally better time and with a magnet when the Custom 8 was the next best thing. (I love it to this day so, yeah )
The Fuglybucker was a SET, from the ones that voted they'd get one, I'd be willing to wager resulted in an average of two pickups per member, again for a total of about 140 or so pickups.

If this pickup materializes (and continues to interest me), I fully expect to get a set as well so, there's that.

I still want to hear from the CS and then go for a revote where we'll gauge actual interest, although the how still needs to be determined...

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I don't buy this because I suspect the folks in the custom shop can get the right output and voice. I for one, am not about to say that I know what MJ and company can't do.

Well, there's physics and stuff.

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Of course it won't. You wouldn't be able fit that much wire in it. But if you can get close, you're gold.

It' not so much the amount of wire as it is it's orientation to the string and the magnet underneath. The main problem is that pickups with even closer layouts to a reap P-90 have been criticized, so what chance does a 3+3 design have? I'm OK with the design either way, though. I just hope it wouldn't sound as dark as a StraBro 90.

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The low interest has bothered me from the beginning. It's only gotten worse.

IMO, a lot of it fizzled with the Z-90 debate. The people who thought up the Z-90 last year had a point, but it was ultimately disruptive to a clean and fair process this time around.

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Well, there's physics and stuff.

Which is to say you are saying nothing, because the basics of it are going to be how it is voiced. I am fairly convinced that those like MJ and Seymour know a fair bit about this, and suspect that with, you know, physics and stuff, it will be possible to recreate a sound with different materials or configurations.

I have said from the beginning I want a humbucker that sounds like a p90 and could care less about configuration. Being as the fralin p92 is somewhat close, and the Wilde forerunner to the l610 nails this, I call BS on your non-answer.

Because physics and stuff in no way rules out a pickup with a certain eq curve. You have given exactly no reason to believe your assertion. If MJ or someone with extensive custom voicing and years of winding experience were to say they didn't think it could be done, it would have a lot more weight.

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Which is to say you are saying nothing, because the basics of it are going to be how it is voiced. I am fairly convinced that those like MJ and Seymour know a fair bit about this, and suspect that with, you know, physics and stuff, it will be possible to recreate a sound with different materials or configurations.

If dreams could come true, the StraBro 90 would sound identical to a P-90, or a JB Jr. would sound like a JB, etc. The Custom Shop can make a lot of things happen, but they're still subject to the laws of reality.

Because physics and stuff in no way rules out a pickup with a certain eq curve. You have given exactly no reason to believe your assertion. If MJ or someone with extensive custom voicing and years of winding experience were to say they didn't think it could be done, it would have a lot more weight.

The EQ curve of the coil is only one part of the end result. The more important aspect (as you can't imitate this by adding winds or changing wire gauge) is the shape of the magnetic field and how it intersects with the coil and strings.

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

If dreams could come true, the StraBro 90 would sound identical to a P-90, or a JB Jr. would sound like a JB, etc. The Custom Shop can make a lot of things happen, but they're still subject to the laws of reality.

But it must be nice to know what they can and can't do with a pickup that has no specs. Your thoughts here are baseless conjecture. In fact, they are based in anything but physics as it is impossible to predict what a pickup can or cannot sound like if it
a) Does not exist
b) Has no specifications

This is the kind of thinking that is just not based in anything, but magically chalked up to science, when it is anything but.

The EQ curve of the coil is only one part of the end result. The more important aspect (as you can't imitate this by adding winds or changing wire gauge) is the shape of the magnetic field and how it intersects with the coil and strings.

How the eq curve ends up as the end result is all that matters ultimately. That will be an interaction of coil, magnet, wind pattern, magnetic field, etc. However, ultimately the coloration the pickup imparts is a sum of the parts, one which really doesn't matter if it is achieved the same way. Theoretically, you could get an identical voicing any number of ways if you properly compensated for it. Each part brings it's own character to the table, and the custom shop has a heck of a lot more experience with these things than we do. We don't hear the shape of the magnetic coil. We don't hear the gauge of wire, and we don't hear the magnet. What we hear is the electrical signal generated, after it has been amplified. We hear a sum of all the parts working. The simple fact is, we don't know what is possible for the CS to do voicing wise until they have actually done it. I suspect they could do it. Might it sound like your idealized p90? Who knows. P90s don't all sound alike either. Some are extraordinarily dark, some are quite bright.

[Maggot]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

If dreams could come true, the StraBro 90 would sound identical to a P-90, or a JB Jr. would sound like a JB, etc. The Custom Shop can make a lot of things happen, but they're still subject to the laws of reality.

Everything sounds pretty much the same, but everything sounds a little bit different. If it's got fat mids that aren't quite P-90 mids but they sound awesome, I'm happy.

I'm not a huge JB fan, BTW, and I prefer the JB Jr. To the real JB. It's wirier and less familiar and it fits more places. I also like the way the L'il Demon sounds in demos.

I've never heard a Strat-sized wannabe P-90 that I've liked, though. Physics wins on those! QP easily beats Fralin and Harmonic Design fake Strat P-90s.

But if you've heard a Z-Coil, that's definitely headed toward P-90 sound, although slightly sterile, as G&L pickups tend to be. I think the Custom Shop could fit some mojo into that design.

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

How the eq curve ends up as the end result is all that matters ultimately. That will be an interaction of coil, magnet, wind pattern, magnetic field, etc. However, ultimately the coloration the pickup imparts is a sum of the parts, one which really doesn't matter if it is achieved the same way. Theoretically, you could get an identical voicing any number of ways if you properly compensated for it.

That's simply not true.

This is what a P-90 magnetic field looks like:



versus a PAF layout humbucker:



The portion of the coil that is closest to the magnet inducts more than the portion of the coil that is further away, so the pickups not only differ in what areas of the string they "see", but they also differ in how much they do or do not amplify the portions of the string they "see". A major blow to the Zebro in terms of sounding like a P-90 is the Z layout itself, a P-90 looks at the same point of all six strings. With the Zebro, three of the pole pieces will be further from a harmonic node than the other three, instantly giving it a tone that's distinct from a P-90. Then there's the matter of a P-90 having two magnetic bars under one wide and flat coil versus a Zebro, having two narrow coils over a single bar magnet. This is why other form factors of a given pickup model seldom sound like the pickup they're based on.

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Everything sounds pretty much the same, but everything sounds a little bit different. If it's got fat mids that aren't quite P-90 mids but they sound awesome, I'm happy.

I'm not a huge JB fan, BTW, and I prefer the JB Jr. To the real JB. It's wirier and less familiar and it fits more places. I also like the way the L'il Demon sounds in demos.

I've never heard a Strat-sized wannabe P-90 that I've liked, though. Physics wins on those! QP easily beats Fralin and Harmonic Design fake Strat P-90s.

But if you've heard a Z-Coil, that's definitely headed toward P-90 sound, although slightly sterile, as G&L pickups tend to be. I think the Custom Shop could fit some mojo into that design.

IMO the problem is that saying "this sounds like a P-90 / JB / PAF" is all just marketing talk to sell a pickup that might be great in it's own right. YOu have to wonder how the Little '59 sales would fare if they called it the "Smooth Strat Humbucker" and didn't try to exploit the appeal of one pickup to sell another.


BTW, speaking of voicing, the resonant peaks of the little and large counterparts aren't even the same, so they can't even claim they're faithfully replicating the EQ profile of the original full sized pickups. It's a suggestive inference at best.

[Myaccount876]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The portion of the coil that is closest to the magnet inducts more than the portion of the coil that is further away, so the pickups not only differ in what areas of the string they "see", but they also differ in how much they do or do not amplify the portions of the string they "see". A major blow to the Zebro in terms of sounding like a P-90 is the Z layout itself, a P-90 looks at the same point of all six strings. With the Zebro, three of the pole pieces will be further from a harmonic node than the other three, instantly giving it a tone that's distinct from a P-90. Then there's the matter of a P-90 having two magnetic bars under one wide and flat coil versus a Zebro, having two narrow coils over a single bar magnet. This is why other form factors of a given pickup model seldom sound like the pickup they're based on.

What about P90's that are slanted? I've played them, and they still sound like a P90 while being under different harmonic nodes. It's not exactly the same, but it still definitely sounds like a P90. I wouldn't say the Z coil configuration would automatically fail at having a P90 voicing due to covering different harmonic nodes.

[Myaccount876]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Not only a tie, but what seems to me to be a very low number of voters over all. There doesn't seem to be much interest in a forum pickup at all, regardless of what it is.

I would say howzabout we compromise: call the Zebro the forum pickup, and ask (beg?) S.D. to highly consider designing a neck match for the '59/C as an addition to their regular catalog starting next year. (But those of use who want to buy one of the early "prototype" run now, 10 months early or whatever it is, can do so.) As for the tweaked '59/C bridge pickup (the brighter/clearer one), I'd love to have that pickup, but in the interest of not being greedy and demanding, I say we drop the idea, as part of the compromise that I proposed.

This sounds like a great idea! I think that'd make a lot of people happy.