Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

[DreX]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

What about P90's that are slanted? I've played them, and they still sound like a P90 while being under different harmonic nodes. It's not exactly the same, but it still definitely sounds like a P90. I wouldn't say the Z coil configuration would automatically fail at having a P90 voicing due to covering different harmonic nodes.

Any slanted pickup will sound like that pickup slanted.

[LtKojak]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)



Is the Zebro made with two bobbins like these, but spread in two different locations on a hb baseplate and covered, to look like this?



If yes, then my question would be: WHY is this particular design appealing? WHAT EXACTLY does it bring to the table tone-wise? Specially if it should sound P-90ish, it doesn't have any physical factor that remotely could suggest 90 tone, so WHY this has being chosen?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Is the Zebro made with two bobbins like these, but spread in two different locations on a hb baseplate and covered, to look like this?



If yes, then my question would be: WHY is this particular design appealing? WHAT EXACTLY does it bring to the table tone-wise? Specially if it should sound P-90ish, it doesn't have any physical factor that remotely could suggest 90 tone, so WHY this has being chosen?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Agreed... since the zebro would fill a humbucker route why wouldn't someone just buy a humbucker sized p90? I'd rather live with a bit of hum with real P90 tone than some split coil thing that doesn't hum and almost kinda sorta sounds like one. Plus the wide range look does not appeal to me. That said I voted for the hybrid.

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

To be fair, there IS a P-90 in a bucker route, it's called the Phat Cat.

The idea with the Zebro is a hum-canceling pickup that fits a bucker route with a sound in the P-90 ballpark.
The whole 3+3 design definition is a hold-over from the Z-90 days that's, frankly, obsolete in the sense that we never agreed to telling the SD CS how to build it. If they decide to use it themselves then so be it but we are not telling them to.
EDIT: apologies, it seems I remembered wrong, there is indeed a split coil requirement in the description.
I still maintain that it would be best if we were to drop it in lieu of asking the CS to decide the best course of action, while perhaps nudging them towards the construction in the form of a suggestion/idea.

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

That's simply not true.

This is what a P-90 magnetic field looks like:



versus a PAF layout humbucker:



The portion of the coil that is closest to the magnet inducts more than the portion of the coil that is further away, so the pickups not only differ in what areas of the string they "see", but they also differ in how much they do or do not amplify the portions of the string they "see". A major blow to the Zebro in terms of sounding like a P-90 is the Z layout itself, a P-90 looks at the same point of all six strings. With the Zebro, three of the pole pieces will be further from a harmonic node than the other three, instantly giving it a tone that's distinct from a P-90. Then there's the matter of a P-90 having two magnetic bars under one wide and flat coil versus a Zebro, having two narrow coils over a single bar magnet. This is why other form factors of a given pickup model seldom sound like the pickup they're based on.

Actually, it is true. Even if you are choosing to ignore the obvious. We don't hear a magnetic field's shape. We don't hear the field at all. We hear the signal generated by an interaction of a whole system. To be blunt, if you miss this, there are some serious problems. We hear sound, after it has been amplified from a pickup as a whole, what we hear is always going to be, (contrary to your claims here) sound. That sound is going to be a sum of the parts. The assumption that a sound can only be generated one way is more than slightly ridiculous. You are taking a myopic look at magnetic fields, which while they have an effect, are not the end result.
The end result is going to be a sound, and if you want a graph, frequency response across the spectrum would be the one you are looking for.

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

We don't hear a magnetic field's shape. Blah blah woof woof... etc etc..

The problem with your comment is that the shape of the magnetic field directly influences the sound thats generated... You cannot get away from that. You yourself proved and shot yourself in the foot the time you yanked the pole screws out of your BKP and its still produced sound. The only changes that occurred there were changes to the shape of the magnetic field.

[Grenade]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Ok, it's tied. What now? I think build both.

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Even though the Zebro has more discussion surrounding it, I'd bet that hybrids would get more actual orders.

[Swyse]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

Even though the Zebro has more discussion surrounding it, I'd bet that hybrids would get more actual orders.

I think a lot of people (if I'm way off let me know), including me would be nearly equally happy with a matching "hybrid" style pickup for the neck to match the regular 59/custom hybrid bridge as a regular production pickup instead of the whole set as a forum run. Maybe something like the 59/Jazz Hybrid BachToRock suggested in his original post over 10 years ago. I see a lot of talk about it not being special enough as a custom shop forum pickup concept.

[Myaccount876]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The main reason I'm not really enthusiastic for the Hybrid is completely selfish. I am only interested in a bridge pickup, and a neck to match the '59/Custom Hybrid would be cool, but I simply wouldn't buy it. Sure, we're tagging on a modified '59/Custom Hybrid, but here are my thoughts: it's going to have to be different enough to justify paying for a Custom Shop pickup over the cheaper production pickup. At the same time, if it is too different, people will complain about it not being anywhere near a '59/Custom Hybrid. That's why I'm not too excited over the design - and I probably wouldn't buy it. The whole ****storm around the forum pickup is also starting to make me lose interest all together. I think I'll show myself out soon and come back to see what is actually being made and then decide if I want to order.

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

To be fair, there IS a P-90 in a bucker route, it's called the Phat Cat.

The idea with the Zebro is a hum-canceling pickup that fits a bucker route with a sound in the P-90 ballpark.
The whole 3+3 design definition is a hold-over from the Z-90 days that's, frankly, obsolete in the sense that we never agreed to telling the SD CS how to build it. If they decide to use it themselves then so be it but we are not telling them to.
EDIT: apologies, it seems I remembered wrong, there is indeed a split coil requirement in the description.
I still maintain that it would be best if we were to drop it in lieu of asking the CS to decide the best course of action, while perhaps nudging them towards the construction in the form of a suggestion/idea.

I know about the phat cat. I was just saying why build a forum pickup around something that's going to sound in the ball park of a P90 when you could just go with a bucker sized P90... Sure it would have hum but I'd rather sacrifice hum then tone...

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

See, this is why I tried to get more attention on Orpheo's pickup but it never went anywhere. It's structured like a phat cat so it would get much closer to the P90 tonality. It also had a tap for dual voicing. It's already worked out on the technical level, and would probably cost less a Zebro.

[KeeperOS]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

I do think a lot of the talk regarding the Zebro is whether it will or will not work, not a good start but expected.

TBH I would be more interested in the hybrid but I agree with Myaccount876 in that we shot ourselves in the foot with the whole 59/Custom requirement. I have held on saying this sooner but I think it'd be opening more options if we were to drop the "we want a new bridge but the neck should match the current 59/C as well" requirement and only keep it as a starting point to get the CS a better idea of what we want.

[DarkMatter]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

^But most of the support for the hybrid started with having a neck match for the 59/Custom. Kinda hard to just throw that out.

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Forum design vote #6 (Choose wisely)

The problem with your comment is that the shape of the magnetic field directly influences the sound thats generated... You cannot get away from that. You yourself proved and shot yourself in the foot the time you yanked the pole screws out of your BKP and its still produced sound. The only changes that occurred there were changes to the shape of the magnetic field.

Coming from the guy who doesn't think pole pieces and screws are magnetised, this is rich. In short, you are clearly out of touch with reality. There were changes that occurred.

And it produced almost no sound. Which means you were wrong, just unable to see it. There was a minor bit of sound produced which was almost no sound. I have had stronger signals from bleedthrough in factory amps. The changes were indeed more than the shape of the magnetic field, the larger change was that it drastically changed the distant from the magnet to the string since the screws are magnetized by the bar magnet. (Even if you don't believe it)

The fact is, a pickup is a total system and we can't hear the magnetic field's shape. (Seriously, some people are ridiculous if they don't realize we can only hear sound.) The magnetic field is but one piece of the sound of a pickup.