Nickel Silver vs. Brass
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LtKojak
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
So, AGAIN, you talk about things your know nothing about. Are you never going to learn?
If don't "believe", it means your haven't tried.
So, AGAIN, you talk about things your know nothing about. Are you never going to learn?
Your must be a flat-earth believer. As there's "no proof being offered"... am I right?
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
LtKojak -
Yes you are right. I think (but can not offer proof) that you and FFalbo and a few others are "always" right. At least, to *me* as Kojak would say. "flat earth believer", that is harsh, but still funny and true in the way you mean it. Plus I know you always mean well, even when we had an arguemeant (once), you were still polite when crushing me with knowledge.
Just thought I should say something. Along the lines of: " Just sayin' "
Buff
LtKojak -
Yes you are right. I think (but can not offer proof) that you and FFalbo and a few others are "always" right. At least, to *me* as Kojak would say. "flat earth believer", that is harsh, but still funny and true in the way you mean it. Plus I know you always mean well, even when we had an arguemeant (once), you were still polite when crushing me with knowledge.
Just thought I should say something. Along the lines of: " Just sayin' "
Buff
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freefrog
Well-known member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
OK… it’s not that I have too much free time but let’s try to share something.
Pic 1 below shows resonant peaks obtained with a tiny ultra low impedance coil, exciting a guitar pickup with a swept mono signal.
These resonant peaks are those of the two coils in a generic anonymous humbucker, mounted upon a brass baseplate then on a nickel silver one.
The pickup was associated to a typical wiring harness, plugged through a guitar cable in a 1M input.
There are comparable results here: https://alexkenis.wordpress.com/201...e-material-effect-on-self-resonant-frequency/
On this basis, we could think that baseplate materials have a minimal tonal effect.
According to some experimental notes that I’ve took a while back, this feeling might change when harmonics are considered.
During my tests, with a nickel silver baseplate, any monophonic signal was reflected by even order harmonics, whose heights were greater next to each fundamental frequency produced (along a limited bandwidth).
With a brass baseplate, odd order harmonics appeared and the whole harmonic “haze” was more evenly distributed along the spectrum.
These features were more pronounced with a polyphonic signal.
A generic spectrum analyzer tends to decipher these harmonic behaviors as being a proof of greater distortion (THD or IMD) with a brass BP. The second pic below shows the IMD "measured" with the coils and BP involved in the first screenshot.
All that stuff could explain why the NS baseplate is often perceived as contributing to a more focused tone, while the brass one is felt as feeding a rounder response (the broadness of the harmonic "haze" giving something vaguely similar to a low Q Rz in this last case).
FWIW (=my two cents, translating admittedly limited experiments).
OK… it’s not that I have too much free time but let’s try to share something.
Pic 1 below shows resonant peaks obtained with a tiny ultra low impedance coil, exciting a guitar pickup with a swept mono signal.
These resonant peaks are those of the two coils in a generic anonymous humbucker, mounted upon a brass baseplate then on a nickel silver one.
The pickup was associated to a typical wiring harness, plugged through a guitar cable in a 1M input.
There are comparable results here: https://alexkenis.wordpress.com/201...e-material-effect-on-self-resonant-frequency/
On this basis, we could think that baseplate materials have a minimal tonal effect.
According to some experimental notes that I’ve took a while back, this feeling might change when harmonics are considered.
During my tests, with a nickel silver baseplate, any monophonic signal was reflected by even order harmonics, whose heights were greater next to each fundamental frequency produced (along a limited bandwidth).
With a brass baseplate, odd order harmonics appeared and the whole harmonic “haze” was more evenly distributed along the spectrum.
These features were more pronounced with a polyphonic signal.
A generic spectrum analyzer tends to decipher these harmonic behaviors as being a proof of greater distortion (THD or IMD) with a brass BP. The second pic below shows the IMD "measured" with the coils and BP involved in the first screenshot.
All that stuff could explain why the NS baseplate is often perceived as contributing to a more focused tone, while the brass one is felt as feeding a rounder response (the broadness of the harmonic "haze" giving something vaguely similar to a low Q Rz in this last case).
FWIW (=my two cents, translating admittedly limited experiments).
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JeffB
Let it B
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Lots of good info here. Thanks for chiming in Frank and freefrog especially!
Seems that brass has it's own effect which winders may prefer, but it also can be the economical choice. I don't see Paul going that route, he's all about getting the teeniest little details the way he wants often despite the cost. And he does have an affinity for brass parts. My SC245 has brass everywhere...tuner posts, saddles, thumbwheels, tailpiece studs...and baseplates
And it seem when Larry really wanted to nail down vintage tones, those pickups got better covers, and (edit) NS baseplates.
Food for thought.
Lots of good info here. Thanks for chiming in Frank and freefrog especially!
Seems that brass has it's own effect which winders may prefer, but it also can be the economical choice. I don't see Paul going that route, he's all about getting the teeniest little details the way he wants often despite the cost. And he does have an affinity for brass parts. My SC245 has brass everywhere...tuner posts, saddles, thumbwheels, tailpiece studs...and baseplates
And it seem when Larry really wanted to nail down vintage tones, those pickups got better covers, and (edit) NS baseplates.
Food for thought.
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darthphineas
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Be careful freefrog, people have been known to have issues with word like "haze" that people think are more nebulous and less scientific. lol!
But it's OK, the 99.99% of the rest of us know exactly what you mean.
Be careful freefrog, people have been known to have issues with word like "haze" that people think are more nebulous and less scientific. lol!
But it's OK, the 99.99% of the rest of us know exactly what you mean.
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
It takes a handful of minutes to do a base plate swap. Therefore, it's not realistic that anyone here has properly A/B'd the difference between brass and nickel silver base plates. There would have been enough time to have passed between the swap that you would not be able to recall the tiny distinction between one material and the other, if there was one. People expect there to be a particular difference, and will convince themselves they hear one.
It takes a handful of minutes to do a base plate swap. Therefore, it's not realistic that anyone here has properly A/B'd the difference between brass and nickel silver base plates. There would have been enough time to have passed between the swap that you would not be able to recall the tiny distinction between one material and the other, if there was one. People expect there to be a particular difference, and will convince themselves they hear one.
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Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
The cover matters for sure, not doubt about it. But there is another valid reason to use nickel silver for the base plate... aesthetics. If the customer is convinced that it is better, the customer wants to see it there. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't actually better.
The cover matters for sure, not doubt about it. But there is another valid reason to use nickel silver for the base plate... aesthetics. If the customer is convinced that it is better, the customer wants to see it there. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't actually better.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
You can do it with a shuttle guitar in seconds, if you have two otherwise equal pickups and you can chuck them both in and out instantly. Even if you suspected the coils being different, you just swap the baseplates between the two test pickups and see whether the delta follows the baseplates, or follows the coil/magnet.
What I'm surprised you have disdain for, however, is the cumulative experiential and anecdotal testimony of multiple people. As though only confirmation bias were the cause. I've been a pickup enthusiast since my first JB at the age of 13. For almost 30 years now, whether working in the industry or not, I've experienced a lot of things with the critical and analytical mind. Now, take brass baseplates for example. I had already heard certain sonic nuances between various pickups over the many years BEFORE I ever considered that brass vs nickel baseplates could be a factor. In other words, by the time I realized the baseplate material could have any impact, I had already had 20 years of experiences with pickups that did not contain any confirmation bias toward the baseplate material, because I never assumed it mattered. So, much later, when I began to realize the baseplate can change the sound, it was only at THAT moment when I began to look back over all the pickups I've played over the years and say "oh yeah, that's part of what I was hearing.
It's kind of like never knowing what cumin <or insert any seasoning> tasted or smelled like, but there are dozens of dishes that you don't like. You don't know why, you just don't like them. Then, you finally realize that its cumin. You don't like it, and certain dishes use it.
After that point, then yes I've conducted many experiments, some as part of the Fluence R&D, that validated the differences in real time.
The way you're putting it, you make it seem like you think we only started to hear the differences between baseplate materials after someone suggested to us that we should. So let me just state it clearly to avoid any misunderstandings: In controlled tests, I have proven to myself and others that the baseplate material makes an audible difference in the way a traditional humbucker sounds and responds. I've been in rooms full of people with some of the best ears in the business, and they've agreed. I've also been in rooms with people who don't have any particular gift when it comes to their ears, and they've heard and felt the difference too. What is fair to say is that some people will not hear the difference, some will not care. You could even opine that "most" would not care and though I'd disagree, I can't offer hard evidence to contradict that.
But one thing that seems clear, is that I'm telling you the difference is audible, after conducting tests, and you're telling us that the difference is not audible, seemingly after having conducted zero tests. I asked how many baseplates you've swapped and listened to the before/after, and you've not replied with any. So if we're being scientific, I have to assume you've swapped zero baseplates, but you're telling us we aren't hearing something.
Here's another experience I'll put down: It's not a rule, but often times if someone can't hear a difference between covered/uncovered or baseplate material, basically things that are eddy current related, if you watch them play they'll be the people who don't pick very hard, and/or play with lots of different dynamics. There is a way to demonstrate the differences in covers and/or baseplates. I can play the two test subjects in a way that minimizes the differences between the two, or I can play other ways where you say "Oh there it is, I hear it!" You realize that for a certain style of playing, or picking, and with certain types of preamps and overdrives, the characteristics come through, and affect the harmonic content. Sometimes people think ultra-clean is THE way to test the pickup differences, but it could be that a raging Plexi, and someone who picks hard and soft, and adjusts their guitar volume knob makes the differences clear as day.
Boy I'm sure glad you're not talking about me.
You can do it with a shuttle guitar in seconds, if you have two otherwise equal pickups and you can chuck them both in and out instantly. Even if you suspected the coils being different, you just swap the baseplates between the two test pickups and see whether the delta follows the baseplates, or follows the coil/magnet.
What I'm surprised you have disdain for, however, is the cumulative experiential and anecdotal testimony of multiple people. As though only confirmation bias were the cause. I've been a pickup enthusiast since my first JB at the age of 13. For almost 30 years now, whether working in the industry or not, I've experienced a lot of things with the critical and analytical mind. Now, take brass baseplates for example. I had already heard certain sonic nuances between various pickups over the many years BEFORE I ever considered that brass vs nickel baseplates could be a factor. In other words, by the time I realized the baseplate material could have any impact, I had already had 20 years of experiences with pickups that did not contain any confirmation bias toward the baseplate material, because I never assumed it mattered. So, much later, when I began to realize the baseplate can change the sound, it was only at THAT moment when I began to look back over all the pickups I've played over the years and say "oh yeah, that's part of what I was hearing.
It's kind of like never knowing what cumin <or insert any seasoning> tasted or smelled like, but there are dozens of dishes that you don't like. You don't know why, you just don't like them. Then, you finally realize that its cumin. You don't like it, and certain dishes use it.
After that point, then yes I've conducted many experiments, some as part of the Fluence R&D, that validated the differences in real time.
The way you're putting it, you make it seem like you think we only started to hear the differences between baseplate materials after someone suggested to us that we should. So let me just state it clearly to avoid any misunderstandings: In controlled tests, I have proven to myself and others that the baseplate material makes an audible difference in the way a traditional humbucker sounds and responds. I've been in rooms full of people with some of the best ears in the business, and they've agreed. I've also been in rooms with people who don't have any particular gift when it comes to their ears, and they've heard and felt the difference too. What is fair to say is that some people will not hear the difference, some will not care. You could even opine that "most" would not care and though I'd disagree, I can't offer hard evidence to contradict that.
But one thing that seems clear, is that I'm telling you the difference is audible, after conducting tests, and you're telling us that the difference is not audible, seemingly after having conducted zero tests. I asked how many baseplates you've swapped and listened to the before/after, and you've not replied with any. So if we're being scientific, I have to assume you've swapped zero baseplates, but you're telling us we aren't hearing something.
Here's another experience I'll put down: It's not a rule, but often times if someone can't hear a difference between covered/uncovered or baseplate material, basically things that are eddy current related, if you watch them play they'll be the people who don't pick very hard, and/or play with lots of different dynamics. There is a way to demonstrate the differences in covers and/or baseplates. I can play the two test subjects in a way that minimizes the differences between the two, or I can play other ways where you say "Oh there it is, I hear it!" You realize that for a certain style of playing, or picking, and with certain types of preamps and overdrives, the characteristics come through, and affect the harmonic content. Sometimes people think ultra-clean is THE way to test the pickup differences, but it could be that a raging Plexi, and someone who picks hard and soft, and adjusts their guitar volume knob makes the differences clear as day.
pleximaster
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
I am new here but there seems to be rather few sound clips or videos demonstrating variation in tone.
Best regards plexi
I am new here but there seems to be rather few sound clips or videos demonstrating variation in tone.
Best regards plexi
LtKojak
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Therefore, it's not realistic to assume that you've properly made an A/B comparison test of the resulting mental imagery produced by serious electro-chemical imbalance at neuron level, with the considered actual real world, the one you consider seriously crippled by having to obey the laws of physics, time and space, nor that you're considered actually capable of telling the difference, if any.
Of course you're allowed to beg to differ, but, as there's no actual proof ever being presented of the contrary, therefore, by definition, anything you may say or imply is to simply being dismissed, considered of no intrinsic value whatsoever, including entertainment value.
But we love you anyway!
Again, this unfounded statement comes from sheer speculation, driven out of the most complete ignorance, not only about the setup and the processes involved in metallurgy test, but by not having even the faintest idea about how such tests are actually conducted.
Therefore, it's not realistic to assume that you've properly made an A/B comparison test of the resulting mental imagery produced by serious electro-chemical imbalance at neuron level, with the considered actual real world, the one you consider seriously crippled by having to obey the laws of physics, time and space, nor that you're considered actually capable of telling the difference, if any.
Of course you're allowed to beg to differ, but, as there's no actual proof ever being presented of the contrary, therefore, by definition, anything you may say or imply is to simply being dismissed, considered of no intrinsic value whatsoever, including entertainment value.
But we love you anyway!
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Everything here is speculation. I'm just letting it be known that my speculation disagrees with the speculation of others here. I'm only bothering to post to make sure that another point of view is heard.
The minimum threshold of a human's ability to discern amplitude variance is 1dB air pressure difference. A lot of design variances make a difference, but those differences result in a change that is less than 1dB, and therefore can't be heard. I believe this is such a difference, the base plate is far away from the moving magnetized strings. For example, imagine how much you wouldn't hear if you lowered the pickup one whole additional centimeter, so that the top of the pickup is therefore where the base plate usually resides. Not much happens at that distance from the strings.
Everything here is speculation. I'm just letting it be known that my speculation disagrees with the speculation of others here. I'm only bothering to post to make sure that another point of view is heard.
The minimum threshold of a human's ability to discern amplitude variance is 1dB air pressure difference. A lot of design variances make a difference, but those differences result in a change that is less than 1dB, and therefore can't be heard. I believe this is such a difference, the base plate is far away from the moving magnetized strings. For example, imagine how much you wouldn't hear if you lowered the pickup one whole additional centimeter, so that the top of the pickup is therefore where the base plate usually resides. Not much happens at that distance from the strings.
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Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Either you publish your test results, your hard fought R&D, or you don't, and prove nothing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either keep a secret, or you don't.
Either you publish your test results, your hard fought R&D, or you don't, and prove nothing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either keep a secret, or you don't.
darthphineas
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
lemme get this straight.
the guy known for being the VP of Product Development for Seymour Duncan and for being on the R&D team for Fishman tell you that he's conducted experiments and that is still "speculation"?
lemme get this straight.
the guy known for being the VP of Product Development for Seymour Duncan and for being on the R&D team for Fishman tell you that he's conducted experiments and that is still "speculation"?
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
The difference between a skeptic and a cynic. The skeptic weighs probabilities and looks at the preponderance of the evidence and its likelihood of being true due to the experience of those offering it.
The cynic uses no brainpower and simply says 'I don't believe'.
The cynic offers nothing to any discussion they are part of.
The difference between a skeptic and a cynic. The skeptic weighs probabilities and looks at the preponderance of the evidence and its likelihood of being true due to the experience of those offering it.
The cynic uses no brainpower and simply says 'I don't believe'.
The cynic offers nothing to any discussion they are part of.
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frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Thanaton, please answer this question directly: Have you ever played a pickup with a nickel silver baseplate, then swapped it for a brass baseplate, and played it again? Have you ever done the inverse? Played a pickup with a brass baseplate, and then swapped it for a nickel silver one?
Also I'm not sure whether you're aware of this, but your observance that <1dB shifts aren't audible is actually meaningless once any amount of distortion and compression are introduced. Many saturated distortion tones are made with anywhere from 60dB to 100dB of gain. By definition, though the clipping characteristics add their own obfuscations, a 1dB shift in the relationship between frequencies and dynamics can have an exponentially larger difference at the other side of the distorted signal.
A 1dB shift at the pickup is not a 1:1 1dB shift at the other end of the speaker cabinet. In fact, after clipping a 1dB shift could result in ~0dB at the other end of the speaker cabinet due to hard clipping. BUT you absolutely WILL hear a shift in the harmonic content and the overdrive characteristics.
Thanaton, please answer this question directly: Have you ever played a pickup with a nickel silver baseplate, then swapped it for a brass baseplate, and played it again? Have you ever done the inverse? Played a pickup with a brass baseplate, and then swapped it for a nickel silver one?
Also I'm not sure whether you're aware of this, but your observance that <1dB shifts aren't audible is actually meaningless once any amount of distortion and compression are introduced. Many saturated distortion tones are made with anywhere from 60dB to 100dB of gain. By definition, though the clipping characteristics add their own obfuscations, a 1dB shift in the relationship between frequencies and dynamics can have an exponentially larger difference at the other side of the distorted signal.
A 1dB shift at the pickup is not a 1:1 1dB shift at the other end of the speaker cabinet. In fact, after clipping a 1dB shift could result in ~0dB at the other end of the speaker cabinet due to hard clipping. BUT you absolutely WILL hear a shift in the harmonic content and the overdrive characteristics.
RogerMexiko
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
"After that point, then yes I've conducted many experiments, some as part of the Fluence R&D, that validated the differences in real time."
From what I have read and heard Fishman did extensive research on metallurgical properties of Telecaster bridge baseplates in order to come up with a bridge pickup that would satisfy Greg Koch for the signature set they created for him. don't understand how spices fit into all this but it is clear to me that baseplate material makes a difference in tje pickup sound, even Fender has done significant research at least on the Telecaster baseplate. But could be outmof the ballpark again because guess this is humbucker issue.
"After that point, then yes I've conducted many experiments, some as part of the Fluence R&D, that validated the differences in real time."
From what I have read and heard Fishman did extensive research on metallurgical properties of Telecaster bridge baseplates in order to come up with a bridge pickup that would satisfy Greg Koch for the signature set they created for him. don't understand how spices fit into all this but it is clear to me that baseplate material makes a difference in tje pickup sound, even Fender has done significant research at least on the Telecaster baseplate. But could be outmof the ballpark again because guess this is humbucker issue.
aleclee
Major General GAS
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Even Paul will tell you that his pickups up until 6-8 years ago weren't that good. In fact, he said as much in my NAMM interview with him last year. If your experience was with the Dragons or HFS/VB pickups, even Paul would agree with you. The newer stuff, not so much.I've not had that many PRS on my workbench, but the few I had the opportunity to do a de-luxe setup, none stand out, on the contrary, all were kinda generic-sounding and not really that responsive to touch... and I know it's NOT the wood, as the same instruments with other either Duncan or "boutique" offerings sounded and behaved a lot better after the swaps.
What what do I know, uh?
LtKojak
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
"The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing"
By Steven W. Smith, Ph.D.
It might shed some light about the outcome of the ear stimulation driven by air pressure called "hearing", and what you "hear" is not always what it's there, but the result of comparing what's there with what's not.
Follow that by reading articles you may find on the web on the subject of a musician's ability to recognize certain sounds in apparently "impossible conditions", aka called "selective hearing", and finish with what's called "absolute hearing" aka "perfect pitch".
I reckon that many of your baseless statements come from lack of understanding of the very basics of what hearing is all about. Specially when applied to music.
That's why you wet yourself looking at all those nifty graphs showing "something" and interpreting that "something" into "something else". It strongly suggest that you might suffer from some degree of "tone deafness", and that hearing condition might be at the root of the resulting chemical imbalance, resulting by the brain's inadequacy to process the tympani stimuli.
Do you periodically wash you ears, thanathon? When was the last time you got your ears checked?
Man, before you embarrass yourself even more, read chapters 22 and 23 of the following book:
"The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing"
By Steven W. Smith, Ph.D.
It might shed some light about the outcome of the ear stimulation driven by air pressure called "hearing", and what you "hear" is not always what it's there, but the result of comparing what's there with what's not.
Follow that by reading articles you may find on the web on the subject of a musician's ability to recognize certain sounds in apparently "impossible conditions", aka called "selective hearing", and finish with what's called "absolute hearing" aka "perfect pitch".
I reckon that many of your baseless statements come from lack of understanding of the very basics of what hearing is all about. Specially when applied to music.
That's why you wet yourself looking at all those nifty graphs showing "something" and interpreting that "something" into "something else". It strongly suggest that you might suffer from some degree of "tone deafness", and that hearing condition might be at the root of the resulting chemical imbalance, resulting by the brain's inadequacy to process the tympani stimuli.
Do you periodically wash you ears, thanathon? When was the last time you got your ears checked?
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