Nickel Silver vs. Brass
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RogerMexiko
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
The Tele base plate is a different situation, because for one thing, it's somewhat closer to the coils than a PAF base plate, being attached directly to the bobbin, and for another, a variety of metals with varying degrees of thickness have been used on Tele bridges, including some permeable metals, such as steel, whereas the metals in question, brass and nickel silver only really vary in terms of conductivity, and are both non-magnetic.
Even then, Telecaster base plates make only a very small difference. They were never put their for tonal reasons, though the historical revisionists like to talk about how they increase the inductance, and make them sound fatter, ask someone precisely how much a base plate of a given material increase the inductance by, and you'll hear crickets. In other words, everyone just takes everyone else's word for it.
The reason they're there, based on what we know of Fender's priorities at the time, is either to shield the under side of the coil, as the top side was supposed to be covered by the "ash tray", or to provide threading for the three large mounting screws. Subsequent pickups designed by Fender had no base plate, and used smaller screws with wider threadings that would hold securely to the fiber bobbin material, so Fender apparently felt that whatever benefit the base plate provided wasn't enough to justify keeping it around.
The Tele base plate is a different situation, because for one thing, it's somewhat closer to the coils than a PAF base plate, being attached directly to the bobbin, and for another, a variety of metals with varying degrees of thickness have been used on Tele bridges, including some permeable metals, such as steel, whereas the metals in question, brass and nickel silver only really vary in terms of conductivity, and are both non-magnetic.
Even then, Telecaster base plates make only a very small difference. They were never put their for tonal reasons, though the historical revisionists like to talk about how they increase the inductance, and make them sound fatter, ask someone precisely how much a base plate of a given material increase the inductance by, and you'll hear crickets. In other words, everyone just takes everyone else's word for it.
The reason they're there, based on what we know of Fender's priorities at the time, is either to shield the under side of the coil, as the top side was supposed to be covered by the "ash tray", or to provide threading for the three large mounting screws. Subsequent pickups designed by Fender had no base plate, and used smaller screws with wider threadings that would hold securely to the fiber bobbin material, so Fender apparently felt that whatever benefit the base plate provided wasn't enough to justify keeping it around.
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RogerMexiko
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
"Listeners can tell that two tones are different if their frequencies differ by more than about 0.3% at 3 kHz. This increases to 3% at 100 hertz. For comparison, adjacent keys on a piano differ by about 6% in frequency."
"Listeners can tell that two tones are different if their frequencies differ by more than about 0.3% at 3 kHz. This increases to 3% at 100 hertz. For comparison, adjacent keys on a piano differ by about 6% in frequency."
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Humans can detect very small differences in frequency, but differences in amplitude are another story. The frequency function of a guitar comes from the moving guitar strings. All a pickup does, in its capacity as a resonant low pass filter, is vary the amplitude of those frequencies.
Humans can detect very small differences in frequency, but differences in amplitude are another story. The frequency function of a guitar comes from the moving guitar strings. All a pickup does, in its capacity as a resonant low pass filter, is vary the amplitude of those frequencies.
RogerMexiko
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
you left a key factor - Timbre or tone color. please broaden your statement to include this factor. think the result will be that conclusively baseplate material has to be considered.
you left a key factor - Timbre or tone color. please broaden your statement to include this factor. think the result will be that conclusively baseplate material has to be considered.
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Base plates make too little of an impact to effect the timbre, or tone color, produced by the pickup.
Base plates make too little of an impact to effect the timbre, or tone color, produced by the pickup.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
I'm not sure how you're defining that, but you still have not answered whether you have personally played a pickup with one kind of baseplate, and then changed the baseplate and played it again. Is it that hard to say "No, I haven't ever done that but I'm still pretty sure my theories would hold up against your experiences."
I'm not sure how you're defining that, but you still have not answered whether you have personally played a pickup with one kind of baseplate, and then changed the baseplate and played it again. Is it that hard to say "No, I haven't ever done that but I'm still pretty sure my theories would hold up against your experiences."
Dave Locher
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Wow, this is almost as fun as all the "tonewood doesn't matter" threads.
Just for the record, I'm taking as valid the voices of experience and wondering why the "debate" even continues.
Wow, this is almost as fun as all the "tonewood doesn't matter" threads.
Just for the record, I'm taking as valid the voices of experience and wondering why the "debate" even continues.
JB_From_Hell
Jomo's Nimions
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Eric Johnson used to rubber band the battery cover on one of his pedals because the screw affected the tone negatively. After reading that, I tried crap like that with my pedals. I never heard it, but there's no way I'm gonna say EJ can't hear it.
Eric Johnson used to rubber band the battery cover on one of his pedals because the screw affected the tone negatively. After reading that, I tried crap like that with my pedals. I never heard it, but there's no way I'm gonna say EJ can't hear it.
darthphineas
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Most of us have read things that "known" players have done and then try it ourselves. Or am I the only one other than Eddie that has boiled strings?
Guys like EJ knowing when a different speaker cable is being used for a certain cab.... and Yngwie hearing the difference in two pickups with less than 100 turn difference... yeah, I do totally believe those. Because I believe the guys that were there and witnessed it.
Most of us have read things that "known" players have done and then try it ourselves. Or am I the only one other than Eddie that has boiled strings?
Guys like EJ knowing when a different speaker cable is being used for a certain cab.... and Yngwie hearing the difference in two pickups with less than 100 turn difference... yeah, I do totally believe those. Because I believe the guys that were there and witnessed it.
eclecticsynergy
Well-known member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
I really like the T&B humbuckers in my '87 PRS. Yes, they're unique: not warm, not round, not PAF-like at all. It took me some time to get used to them. But the unconventional slug coil gives them a unique attack & sparkle. They're detailed, very responsive to dynamics & fingertouch, and at gain they display a remarkable degree of separation across strings that was unrivaled in its day, and for years afterwards. I like the Dragon I pickups a lot too- another unusual design, and one of very few ceramic humbuckers that I've been able to bond with. I'm not a big fan of the HFS and do agree the more recent PAF type series are excellent by any standard- the 57/08s in my McCarty are near the top of the list for my favorite PAF types.
Still, I feel the early PRS pickups often don't get the appreciation they deserve simply because they're so different from traditional pickups they were compared to at the time. There really isn't anything similar enough to make a fair comparison. So IMO Paul may be selling his early radical designs short.
I really like the T&B humbuckers in my '87 PRS. Yes, they're unique: not warm, not round, not PAF-like at all. It took me some time to get used to them. But the unconventional slug coil gives them a unique attack & sparkle. They're detailed, very responsive to dynamics & fingertouch, and at gain they display a remarkable degree of separation across strings that was unrivaled in its day, and for years afterwards. I like the Dragon I pickups a lot too- another unusual design, and one of very few ceramic humbuckers that I've been able to bond with. I'm not a big fan of the HFS and do agree the more recent PAF type series are excellent by any standard- the 57/08s in my McCarty are near the top of the list for my favorite PAF types.
Still, I feel the early PRS pickups often don't get the appreciation they deserve simply because they're so different from traditional pickups they were compared to at the time. There really isn't anything similar enough to make a fair comparison. So IMO Paul may be selling his early radical designs short.
eclecticsynergy
Well-known member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
To go off on another tangent, a question for those who don't dismiss the idea that baseplates can make a difference:
Have steel baseplates ever been tried in humbuckers? and what might be the results?
There could be good reasons for not doing it, but I'm curious.
To go off on another tangent, a question for those who don't dismiss the idea that baseplates can make a difference:
Have steel baseplates ever been tried in humbuckers? and what might be the results?
There could be good reasons for not doing it, but I'm curious.
RogerMexiko
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
FINAL CONCLUSION - Nickel Silver vs. Brass - YES THEY MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
Thread can now be closed and we all live happily ever after.
FINAL CONCLUSION - Nickel Silver vs. Brass - YES THEY MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
Thread can now be closed and we all live happily ever after.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Non-magnetic stainless is more inert. So it's closer to plastic/no baseplate. So closer to the nickel silver than the brass. It's more inert as a cover material as well, and is used on some Fluence models for that reason.
GoldenVulture
Braindeadologist
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
As usual Thanaton is late to the party with his ultimate wisdom. This issue has been discussed any times here, over the years. EG - https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...me-the-high-end&highlight=base+plate+material - One of many threads relating to this issue.
Patricia ?
- http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/why-do-we-use-nickel-silver-baseplates -
As usual Thanaton is late to the party with his ultimate wisdom. This issue has been discussed any times here, over the years. EG - https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...me-the-high-end&highlight=base+plate+material - One of many threads relating to this issue.
Patricia ?
- http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/why-do-we-use-nickel-silver-baseplates -
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Yeah Patricia was an early social media person. She kicked off those blogs, I think possibly with my first one about my first JB. She was great. At that time it just said Patricia because she's the one who posted up the blog.
Yes and yes I believe. Since it's an adaptation of the Bill Lawrence pickup(s) that Dime had been using up until then, one might presume that it's not just a visual or mechanical similarity, but that if the tonal response of the Bill Lawrence pickup was correct without a metal baseplate, then so would be the Dimebucker.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Let the poopstorm continue, just put thanaton on ignore. There's great information coming from Frank, Kojak and others when threads like this spin for a couple days. That makes this place worth the price of admission.
Let the poopstorm continue, just put thanaton on ignore. There's great information coming from Frank, Kojak and others when threads like this spin for a couple days. That makes this place worth the price of admission.
YeRedHouseOverYonder
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Lol, I used to boil my bass strings in HS. The struggle was real, but it works haha.
+1 To keeping this alive. Tons of valuable info. This is what I love about this forum. Plenty to learn from industry experts and experienced players.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lol, I used to boil my bass strings in HS. The struggle was real, but it works haha.
+1 To keeping this alive. Tons of valuable info. This is what I love about this forum. Plenty to learn from industry experts and experienced players.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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