Nickel Silver vs. Brass

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Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

I am sure that there are sonic differences. How great they are probably depend on a lot of things, like guitar strings, playing technique, actual pickup design and so on. I have been in similar discussions about vintage Marshall amps and various components old verses new. I there are differences here in my experience. Old components (resistors and capacitors, transformers, pots...) react differently under actual real time load compared with modern parts with different construction and material. Changing out one component or two you wont be able to here it not three either... but at some point there is a threshold and if you change out everything (keeping all values on the components the same) the sound of the amp will be noticeable different, for the guitarist at least. In a band situation, perhaps not, when the drummer and bassist join in. :) And the crowd... they know nothing! ;) But changing strings from 6 month old ones, to new ones, will have a bigger influence on tone!

However the one thing that is important is the psychological aspect. If I play an amp that I know is "right" and sounds great,the way I want it to sound, I will play better, I´ll get better tone, perform better and even the crowd will hear that!

I am interested in trying an A/B test on the baseplate - nickel vs brass. I have a pickup that needs a new baseplate anyway (another nighthawk) so I will order both a brass and a nickel slanted plate and do a very unscientific test un these two. Just for fun and see/hear how I notice the differences...

best regards Lenny
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

I am sure that there are sonic differences. How great they are probably depend on a lot of things, like guitar strings, playing technique, actual pickup design and so on.

They say the minimum audible pressure change that can be discerned by human hearing is around 1dB, so there is a way to figure this stuff out, and if you can make out a 2dB difference, that's still rather impressive. Differences in amplitude start to become more obvious around 5dB. So the question should be put forward "does the change cause an amplitude difference, at any frequency or range of frequencies in excess of 1dB?" If the answer is yes, then someone with golden ears can hear it, and if it's closer to 5dB, then it will be a fairly apparent difference. If and when we get the facts about such differences, they will be in these terms.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

They say the minimum audible pressure change that can be discerned by human hearing is around 1dB, so there is a way to figure this stuff out, and if you can make out a 2dB difference, that's still rather impressive. Differences in amplitude start to become more obvious around 5dB. So the question should be put forward "does the change cause an amplitude difference, at any frequency or range of frequencies in excess of 1dB?" If the answer is yes, then someone with golden ears can hear it, and if it's closer to 5dB, then it will be a fairly apparent difference. If and when we get the facts about such differences, they will be in these terms.
For the love of all things distorted please acknowledge the fact that <1dB movements change the clipping characteristics. (and that gain is a multiplier) When developing Fluence pickups I can shift ONE area by a TENTH of a decibel and hear the difference out of amps at reasonable volume, with some clipping. We don't generally play guitar into HiFi systems with infinite headroom.

And I've asked politely twice, this will be the third time, I implore you to answer my direct question: Have you ever played a pickup with one baseplate, and then swapped the baseplate, and played it again? I'm not going to ridicule you if you haven't; if your premise is entirely theoretical. I think we all deserve to know though...I try to be careful to make statements that are either purposefully definitive, or I'll start with "I think..." but when you type, you seem to use definitive language on things you've not experienced yourself. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be wrong about this. We've also asked you what you do for a living. If you're a pickup maker, that's one thing, aerospace engineer...career student....

And I concede that the baseplate differences are very small. But over the past 2 decades I've seen many posts on different forums with such titles like "Dimarzio vs. Duncan" and there's a common narrative that pops up that many Dimarzio's have "a sound" and Duncan's have "a sound" and although there are exceptions, the two companies of course come at this from different perspectives. But I believe that the brass baseplate, though not very significant in isolation, is a significant component of what leads people who have tried many different models from each company to reach many of the same conclusions, in isolation, without confirmation bias.

That's why I referred to "seasoning" in food. Like whether or not you like fennel in sausage. Once you get a sniff of fennel in isolation, your brain connects the dots, and you realize why you liked certain sausage and disliked others. Then, going forward, you know the reason, and you can pick it out quickly whether it contains the seasoning or not.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

Frank, you're trying to get him to acknowledge someone else knows more than him.

Cold day in hell.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

For the love of all things distorted please acknowledge the fact that <1dB movements change the clipping characteristics. (and that gain is a multiplier) When developing Fluence pickups I can shift ONE area by a TENTH of a decibel and hear the difference out of amps at reasonable volume, with some clipping. We don't generally play guitar into HiFi systems with infinite headroom.

I can believe you discovered interesting things at Fluence, but you're also unwilling to publish findings, and if you don't have the findings, then the next question becomes, how comprehensive was a process that was not somehow documented?

Adding gain is an extraneous variable. If you want to say "you will hear the difference when a particular gain profile is applied, but not with clean settings", that's perfectly fine, and with that qualifier it may be a true statement. But given that that clipping is non-linear by definition, who is to say you will hear the difference with gain, in general? Maybe you will hear the difference in question with with a Blues Driver, but not a Tube Screamer, or vice versa.

And I've asked politely twice, this will be the third time, I implore you to answer my direct question: Have you ever played a pickup with one baseplate, and then swapped the baseplate, and played it again? I'm not going to ridicule you if you haven't; if your premise is entirely theoretical. I think we all deserve to know though...I try to be careful to make statements that are either purposefully definitive, or I'll start with "I think..." but when you type, you seem to use definitive language on things you've not experienced yourself. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be wrong about this. We've also asked you what you do for a living. If you're a pickup maker, that's one thing, aerospace engineer...career student....

If I did make and sell pickups, you would deserve to know.

And I concede that the baseplate differences are very small. But over the past 2 decades I've seen many posts on different forums with such titles like "Dimarzio vs. Duncan" and there's a common narrative that pops up that many Dimarzio's have "a sound" and Duncan's have "a sound" and although there are exceptions, the two companies of course come at this from different perspectives. But I believe that the brass baseplate, though not very significant in isolation, is a significant component of what leads people who have tried many different models from each company to reach many of the same conclusions, in isolation, without confirmation bias.

Not all DiMarzio's have brass base plates, so that just doesn't seem like a useful premise to begin with. IMO, the perceived difference could owe to marketing alone, but there are other common differences. Many, possibly most, DiMarzio humbuckers make good on two of their patents 1) the inclusion of permeable slugs in the bobbins, increasing inductance while not also increasing capacitance, 2) their "air bucker technology" which mixes the metallurgic properties of AlNiCo 5 with the lower flux density of AlNiCo 2, 3 or 4, and ditches the keeper bar. It's not just the "Air Classic" that is an "air bucker", it's many of their pickups.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

I can believe you discovered interesting things at Fluence, but you're also unwilling to publish findings, and if you don't have the findings, then the next question becomes, how comprehensive was a process that was not somehow documented?

Adding gain is an extraneous variable. If you want to say "you will hear the difference when a particular gain profile is applied, but not with clean settings", that's perfectly fine, and with that qualifier it may be a true statement. But given that that clipping is non-linear by definition, who is to say you will hear the difference with gain, in general? Maybe you will hear the difference in question with with a Blues Driver, but not a Tube Screamer, or vice versa.



If I did make and sell pickups, you would deserve to know.



Not all DiMarzio's have brass base plates, so that just doesn't seem like a useful premise to begin with. IMO, the perceived difference could owe to marketing alone, but there are other common differences. Many, possibly most, DiMarzio humbuckers make good on two of their patents 1) the inclusion of permeable slugs in the bobbins, increasing inductance while not also increasing capacitance, 2) their "air bucker technology" which mixes the metallurgic properties of AlNiCo 5 with the lower flux density of AlNiCo 2, 3 or 4, and ditches the keeper bar. It's not just the "Air Classic" that is an "air bucker", it's many of their pickups.



is it wrong that I'm not a drinker, but it's mid-afternoon and this thread has me ready to tie one on?

and....

is there a part in there where thanaton answered the question that Frank asked 3x about if thanaton has played a pickup with one base plate material, then played the same pickup with the other base plate material?
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

When confronted with a direct question, thanaton always pledge the fifth.

When he tries to weasel his way out, like with the baseplate; just say "I take that as a NO". And this involves all past direct questions about personal involvement on any activity where there are other persons.

I just can't imagine him having any friends. The only way to have people around him is by always picking up the tab.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

When confronted with a direct question, thanaton always pledge the fifth.

When he tries to weasel his way out, like with the baseplate; just say "I take that as a NO". And this involves all past direct questions about personal involvement on any activity where there are other persons.

I just can't imagine him having any friends. The only way to have people around him is by always picking up the tab.



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Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

Back to reality: if one were to epoxy a brass plate to the bottom of a dime bucket or similar plastic-base pickup would than influence the sound of the pickup? Or does it matter that on typical humbuckers the magnet(s) is/are in direct contact with the metal base plate?

BTW, as an old saying goes, "you can't win a pi$$ing contest with a skunk."
No point in trying any further.
 
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Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

Yes it's the proximity, not the fact that the two metals are directly touching one another. The Dimebucker's magnetic field is more controlled because of the thin blades, vs a PAF style where half the poles go through the baseplate. But it would still have an impact on inductance and eddy currents.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

Thank you!
I assume one could just temporarily tape different plates on there as an experiment?
I have heard of putting a steel plate under a strat pickup, but never thought of doing something like that on humbuckers.
Looks like I might have a little fun the next time I need to change my strings! Just need to pick up some brass...
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

Thank you!
I assume one could just temporarily tape different plates on there as an experiment?
I have heard of putting a steel plate under a strat pickup, but never thought of doing something like that on humbuckers.
Looks like I might have a little fun the next time I need to change my strings! Just need to pick up some brass...

Yeah just be prepared to have to "exercise" the pickup to really hear and feel the differences (if you perceive them) If you just plug in and go "bling blang bling" into a clean channel you might dismiss it at first. Play soft and hard, under different amounts of overdrive and distortion. One thing I forgot to mention on the Dimebucker, it's been awhile since I've been inside one, I can't remember how close the pickup actually gets to the bottom of the plastic surround. There's a gap in there to accommodate the 4-conductor wire. So it's possible the effect will be smaller than if you were able to get it right up against the bottom of the magnet/poles like where it would be on a traditional humbucker.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

I can believe you discovered interesting things at Fluence, but you're also unwilling to publish findings, and if you don't have the findings, then the next question becomes, how comprehensive was a process that was not somehow documented?
We've touched on this kind of stuff before. Companies aren't obligated to disclose their research. They sell products that benefit from their R&D process. I have confidentiality agreements with more than one pickup maker. Just because the information does not belong to you doesn't mean the experiential conclusions I share are invalid.

Adding gain is an extraneous variable. If you want to say "you will hear the difference when a particular gain profile is applied, but not with clean settings", that's perfectly fine, and with that qualifier it may be a true statement. But given that that clipping is non-linear by definition, who is to say you will hear the difference with gain, in general?
Um...Me? I mean I can't predict whether YOU will hear differences under gain, I'm not you. Peavey Bandit? Roland Micro-Cube? Rockman X100? Maybe not. I can only lead you to the playing situations and rigs in which one of these small differences might make your playing experience more enjoyable, or make it easier for you to get certain sounds, harmonics, etc.

Not all DiMarzio's have brass base plates, so that just doesn't seem like a useful premise to begin with. IMO, the perceived difference could owe to marketing alone, but there are other common differences. Many, possibly most, DiMarzio humbuckers make good on two of their patents 1) the inclusion of permeable slugs in the bobbins, increasing inductance while not also increasing capacitance, 2) their "air bucker technology" which mixes the metallurgic properties of AlNiCo 5 with the lower flux density of AlNiCo 2, 3 or 4, and ditches the keeper bar. It's not just the "Air Classic" that is an "air bucker", it's many of their pickups.
Right. I'm very familiar with Dimarzio's line up over the years, and which pickups utilize which patents. Both of the patents you've cited are indeed part of the reason someone may develop an overarching opinion that Dimarzios have a certain sound vs Duncans. But that's not what I'm referring to. There is an element to the pick attack that is associated with the Airbucker technique. It's in the attack and the early envelope, independent of whether the baseplate is brass or nickel silver. And yeah, today Dimarzio has some non-brass baseplates, but for the better part of 3 decades they were pretty much exclusively brass. So most of those threads I'm talking about that go back over 2 decades of forum geekdom were about a brass-only Dimarzio era, and/or are still referring to a predominantly brass sampling.

You know, certain things about a race car only manifest themselves out on the track at competition speeds. And sometimes test equipment can't get a read on what the driver is telling you out on the track. I've told the Yngwie stories a few times. It's not about brass baseplates, but it does relate to being able to scope something out. There were times during the development process where Yngwie gave us some feedback, and no matter how hard we looked we could not justify what he was saying. Finally, one time I was at his house/studio (sorry not tying to name drop but it is what it is) and lo and behold...His speaker cabinets were tucked away in a cellar, mic'd up, feeding back up to his studio, where the mics went through their own compressors, and he listened to the entire signal chain at quite a reasonable volume. But those speaker cabinets were absolutely SCREAMING. His Marshalls were dimed, his DOD pedal was dimed (gain and level) and the rig was off the rails. At that moment...you could plug in two things that you and I may never perceive as different from one another, and the differences were clear as day. So for that part of the R&D process, I had to come back to the shop and duplicate the setup, albeit with our 50 watt Marshall half stack LOL. But it was only THEN that I could understand what he was getting at. Oh and I also had to pick extremely fast and toggle between hammer-on runs and pick attack, in part to exacerbate what the speaker cone/motor was doing. Thing is, if you were in the room with the 4x12 you would have been deafened. Your ears would go into protection mode and these sonic differences would not be relatable. But this is how he got his sustain, his pick attack, his violin-like early envelopes...Everything was part of the process. So yes part of it was his uncanny ability to hear the smallest little speck of dust, but part of it was the degree of magnification involved.

When you say that "most people can't hear" <insert study results here> you might be leaving out the ear-brain's ability to key in on specific things once they are identified. A mother can hear her own child in a crowded shopping mall. A race car driver can hear that little rattle just before something needs to be replaced. Our kids can hear the slightest scrape of an ice cream tub being opened clear on the other side of the house. All these things can be less than a 1dB change, and many times they are way below the noise floor of the situation. This 1dB thing you're so hung up on...You gotta let it go man.
 
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Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

I think our friend tries to find situations where what he says might just be somewhat accurate, and then shut out any other possible situation as relevant as it leads to catastrophic flaws with his assertion. Like where he say 'adding gain is an extraneous variable'. Its not. EVERY guitar amp has some form of clipping/tonal colouring to the signal for one. Plus the 'normal' use for guitar for 99.9% of guitar players is with the amp in some form of drive. So it is NOT an extraneous variable in the slightest.........the phrase is a very poor and clumsy example of an exit clause - something we know all to well from him.
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

Thank you!
I assume one could just temporarily tape different plates on there as an experiment?
I have heard of putting a steel plate under a strat pickup, but never thought of doing something like that on humbuckers.
Looks like I might have a little fun the next time I need to change my strings! Just need to pick up some brass...

I understand that metal below the baseplate might only have minimal effect due to separation from the magnet. What about metal on top of the baseplate, directly in contact with the mag? Something very thin like foil. Brass, aluminum, steel, maybe even copper? Many options there. Not asking for any proprietary info, but I wonder if anybody here has tried this under circumstances that would allow them to share? Or if it's even worth trying?

Some high gain humbuckers use magnets instead of spacers- would it be unreasonable perhaps to try metal there?
 
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass

I've known the boiling strings trick since I got my first electric guitar in 1972.

Gosh, I'm ooooooold!!! ;)
 
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