PATB-1 in Bridge and Dimarzio FRED in Neck??

[Guitarmusic]

I have a super strat with a mahogany body and a maple top(Warmoth build) maple neck with a Floyd Rose. I was thinking of putting in a Parallel axis in the bridge and a FRED in the Neck. I love the sound and feel of the Dimarzio FRED in the neck. I have never played through a PATB-1b, but hear nothing but great reviews. Has anyone ever tried this?

[jeremy]

never tried it but i bet it would work out fine

[Masta' C]

I haven't used that combo together, but I've used those pickups in those positions and I believe they would work great! Just be aware that the SD wire colors are slightly different when wiring up the PATB-1

[Guitarmusic]

Finally got the pickups installed and the results are in!

The PATB-1 is a very clean sounding pickup in my opinion. The harmonics are great and the sustain is awesome, the height adjustment makes a big difference too. The Dimarzio FRED matches EXTREMELY well with the PATB-1 bridge, I have never played the PATB-1 Neck, but The FRED pairs very well with the bridge. I am kind of used to high output ceramic pickups in the bridge so it is a little to get used to, but I am very pleased with the PATB-1 and its response, it is a great pickup that feels different than anything else I have played. The PATB-1 is kind of like a JB with less output and a more musical response for several genres. The PATB-1 kinda reminds me of the Dimarzio AT-1 but not as dark and a much more even frequency response. Very happy with my decision to pair these two pickups together

I just need to find the right amp pairing on my HELIX for this guitar, kinda leaning to a Marshall sound.

[Despair]

PATB-1b is actually higher output than the JB... It just doesn't sound like it because it has less mids. But it goes into crunch faster when pushing semi-dirty amps. JB is all screaming midrange. Both are great at what they do, in the right guitar. I replaced a JB with a PATB-1b in my Ibanez RG570 (basswood, sounded flubby with stock SH-4 JB in the bridge no matter what I did). My Ibanez turned out to only like the PATB-1b in the bridge.

No shortage of amp model choices, depends on what you are going for.
TLDR: Placater Dirty, Brit 2204, Brit P75, Brit Trem Normal, or Plexi in probably that order of reducing gain (P75 is around same as Trem or Plexi, but is punchier).

Placater Dirty for Friedman HBE-100 modded Marshall goodness. I tend to just stop there.
Line 6 2204 Mod is another fun one, though I tend to get into trouble with the parametric EQ.
Brit 2204 is a classic JCM800.
Brit P75 (Park 75) is often overlooked, amazing punchy classic Marshall.
Plexi Jump is terrific, if you understand how the controls interact. Or just go for the Bright or Normal channels if that's how you like to use it.
Brit Trem is a Marshall 50W Plexi, if the other actual Marshall models strike you as too harsh it's an excellent choice.
Brit 45 is a JTM45, great for Hendrix, classic AC/DC, and so much more.

Back to non-Marshalls, Derailed Ingrid is a Trainwreck Express with EL34s, not really a Marshall, gets very compressed with gain up, but at lower gain does some Marshall-like things.
Line 6 Doom is a JCM800 pre into a Hiwatt power amp, tweaked for more gain, rich sag, and lots of bass.
German Mahadeva is a Bogner Shiva model, which is a pretty modded Marshall sort of amp. Treble control doesn't behave at all like a Marshall.

And of course there's a slew of amps commonly mistaken for Marshalls on records: Soup Pro (Valco Supro S6616), Tweed Blues (Fender Bassman), US Princess (Fender Princeton), US Small Tweed (Fender Champ), US Deluxe (Fender Blackface Deluxe Reverb), Fullerton (Fender 5C3 Deluxe), and Grammatico (Fender 5E3 Deluxe), particularly when paired with a Celestion speaker and a fuzz (Legacy Jumbo for Led Zep I) or overdrive. [Stay away from the Fullerton & Grammatico jumpered channels though, they tend towards blocky fuzzy chaos. Fun if that's what you are looking for, but you probably aren't if you are looking for Marshally...]

And wandering outside Marshall-adjacent tones:
Line 6 Litigator sounds pretty amazing with anything, but I really like it with the PATB-1b. Smooth, yet varied texture with pick attack. Great for low gain, and can do smooth singing high gain when pushed with fuzz/OD/compressors, I tend to use a KWB a lot.

For metal, the Revv channels & Archetype Lead (PRS Archon) are surprisingly dynamic and hard to get bad sounds out of. PV Panama (5150 lead) does exactly what you'd expect.

One trick for classic EVH, Blackmore, and Gibbons tones is to use the Retro Reel modulation (I usually set Saturation around 1.5, and lower or zero the Wow Fluttr parameter, can lower Tape Speed to emphasize midrange) right in front of the amp. Warms things up without getting mushy, much like the various Echoplex & reel-to-reel preamps they used. Not a clean boost, not hugely dirty, not hugely compressed... Just sort of more-ish...

Playing with the various power amp controls is very powerful on the Helix. Sag & Bias in particular. Lower Sag for tighter sounds, higher Sag for more power tube distortion. Bias & Bias X affect cold vs hot bias sound/feel, and what happens when it's pushed hard. All very interactive. Lower Sag & Bias for clean & punchy, raise for warmer power section. I tend to use snapshots to tweak them low for punchy cleans, higher for crunchy rhythm tones, very high sag for smooth leads, and low sag but 6-7 bias for tighter leads.

Hope that helps more than it overwhelms!

[jeremy]

patb1b is a great pup, hotter than the jb? interesting. i wouldnt have thought that

[Despair]

PATB-1b is a lot like a Custom 5 with smoother high end, shallower scoop on the mids, and all the Parallel Axis sustain, harmonics, low string pull, and extended frequency response. The PATB-1b doesn't FEEL hotter because it's so dynamic, which is the opposite of what I found of the JB in the that guitar. JB may compare better on that front in another instrument, but in what was my only guitar at the time, it was just a raging flubby honking screamer. Inflexible, but very good at its one trick!

If it is AWG43 wire, it'd make sense that it's hotter. Higher inductance tends to go with higher output, everything else being the same. And 15.7K of AWG43 is going to be higher output than 16.4K of AWG44, for voltage swings anyways. Frequency response is closely tied to apparent loudness, though... My JB was a bit underwound at 16.1K, IIRC. So if I'm wrong and the PATB-1b is 43AWG, it may just be louder due to the polepieces...

There also have been a couple of tests showing PATB-1b having higher mV readings than a JB.

Going from the JB I had, the PATB-1b was very hard to make stop clipping the input on my Audio IO, where I had no trouble with the JB.

I'm tempted to try magnet swaps in my PATB-1b, but it's so close to perfect already in the guitar it's in... Unoriented A5 would likely be great, in a less midrange-heavy guitar.


Back to OP, if Guitarmusic wants specific suggestions rather than an overview on the Helix amp models, I'd need some info on playing style/bands/songs to make more specific recommendations.

[Guitarmusic]

PATB-1b is actually higher output than the JB... It just doesn't sound like it because it has less mids. But it goes into crunch faster when pushing semi-dirty amps. JB is all screaming midrange. Both are great at what they do, in the right guitar. I replaced a JB with a PATB-1b in my Ibanez RG570 (basswood, sounded flubby with stock SH-4 JB in the bridge no matter what I did). My Ibanez turned out to only like the PATB-1b in the bridge.

No shortage of amp model choices, depends on what you are going for.
TLDR: Placater Dirty, Brit 2204, Brit P75, Brit Trem Normal, or Plexi in probably that order of reducing gain (P75 is around same as Trem or Plexi, but is punchier).

Placater Dirty for Friedman HBE-100 modded Marshall goodness. I tend to just stop there.
Line 6 2204 Mod is another fun one, though I tend to get into trouble with the parametric EQ.
Brit 2204 is a classic JCM800.
Brit P75 (Park 75) is often overlooked, amazing punchy classic Marshall.
Plexi Jump is terrific, if you understand how the controls interact. Or just go for the Bright or Normal channels if that's how you like to use it.
Brit Trem is a Marshall 50W Plexi, if the other actual Marshall models strike you as too harsh it's an excellent choice.
Brit 45 is a JTM45, great for Hendrix, classic AC/DC, and so much more.

Back to non-Marshalls, Derailed Ingrid is a Trainwreck Express with EL34s, not really a Marshall, gets very compressed with gain up, but at lower gain does some Marshall-like things.
Line 6 Doom is a JCM800 pre into a Hiwatt power amp, tweaked for more gain, rich sag, and lots of bass.
German Mahadeva is a Bogner Shiva model, which is a pretty modded Marshall sort of amp. Treble control doesn't behave at all like a Marshall.

And of course there's a slew of amps commonly mistaken for Marshalls on records: Soup Pro (Valco Supro S6616), Tweed Blues (Fender Bassman), US Princess (Fender Princeton), US Small Tweed (Fender Champ), US Deluxe (Fender Blackface Deluxe Reverb), Fullerton (Fender 5C3 Deluxe), and Grammatico (Fender 5E3 Deluxe), particularly when paired with a Celestion speaker and a fuzz (Legacy Jumbo for Led Zep I) or overdrive. [Stay away from the Fullerton & Grammatico jumpered channels though, they tend towards blocky fuzzy chaos. Fun if that's what you are looking for, but you probably aren't if you are looking for Marshally...]

And wandering outside Marshall-adjacent tones:
Line 6 Litigator sounds pretty amazing with anything, but I really like it with the PATB-1b. Smooth, yet varied texture with pick attack. Great for low gain, and can do smooth singing high gain when pushed with fuzz/OD/compressors, I tend to use a KWB a lot.

For metal, the Revv channels & Archetype Lead (PRS Archon) are surprisingly dynamic and hard to get bad sounds out of. PV Panama (5150 lead) does exactly what you'd expect.

One trick for classic EVH, Blackmore, and Gibbons tones is to use the Retro Reel modulation (I usually set Saturation around 1.5, and lower or zero the Wow Fluttr parameter, can lower Tape Speed to emphasize midrange) right in front of the amp. Warms things up without getting mushy, much like the various Echoplex & reel-to-reel preamps they used. Not a clean boost, not hugely dirty, not hugely compressed... Just sort of more-ish...

Playing with the various power amp controls is very powerful on the Helix. Sag & Bias in particular. Lower Sag for tighter sounds, higher Sag for more power tube distortion. Bias & Bias X affect cold vs hot bias sound/feel, and what happens when it's pushed hard. All very interactive. Lower Sag & Bias for clean & punchy, raise for warmer power section. I tend to use snapshots to tweak them low for punchy cleans, higher for crunchy rhythm tones, very high sag for smooth leads, and low sag but 6-7 bias for tighter leads.

Hope that helps more than it overwhelms!

WOW! Thank you for the info! I have a pretty good understanding of the Helix, but your breakdown was great and helped out a lot. I'll check out the higher gain amps you recommend. Usually for cleans I'll use a Fender Deluxe Reverb or a Fender Twin. Really appreciate your comment!!!

[SweetClyde99]

PATB-1b is a lot like a Custom 5 with smoother high end, shallower scoop on the mids, and all the Parallel Axis sustain, harmonics, low string pull, and extended frequency response. The PATB-1b doesn't FEEL hotter because it's so dynamic, which is the opposite of what I found of the JB in the that guitar. JB may compare better on that front in another instrument, but in what was my only guitar at the time, it was just a raging flubby honking screamer. Inflexible, but very good at its one trick!

If it is AWG43 wire, it'd make sense that it's hotter. Higher inductance tends to go with higher output, everything else being the same. And 15.7K of AWG43 is going to be higher output than 16.4K of AWG44, for voltage swings anyways. Frequency response is closely tied to apparent loudness, though... My JB was a bit underwound at 16.1K, IIRC. So if I'm wrong and the PATB-1b is 43AWG, it may just be louder due to the polepieces...

There also have been a couple of tests showing PATB-1b having higher mV readings than a JB.

Going from the JB I had, the PATB-1b was very hard to make stop clipping the input on my Audio IO, where I had no trouble with the JB.

I'm tempted to try magnet swaps in my PATB-1b, but it's so close to perfect already in the guitar it's in... Unoriented A5 would likely be great, in a less midrange-heavy guitar.


Back to OP, if Guitarmusic wants specific suggestions rather than an overview on the Helix amp models, I'd need some info on playing style/bands/songs to make more specific recommendations.

I just had an unoriented A5 in my PATB-1. It was in a naturally bright HH Tele, and the highs were a bit much with the stock A5 in that guitar. I really liked what the unoriented mag did for the highs, but it loosened up the lows a bit too much for my liking—I play with a lot of gain sometimes, and it didn’t handle palm muted riffs as well. If I could’ve done oriented on the bass strings and unoriented on the treble strings, that probably would’ve been the perfect pickup for that guitar.

[Demanic]

I just had an unoriented A5 in my PATB-1. It was in a naturally bright HH Tele, and the highs were a bit much with the stock A5 in that guitar. I really liked what the unoriented mag did for the highs, but it loosened up the lows a bit too much for my liking—I play with a lot of gain sometimes, and it didn’t handle palm muted riffs as well. If I could’ve done oriented on the bass strings and unoriented on the treble strings, that probably would’ve been the perfect pickup for that guitar.

Normal thickness ceramic. Which is probably the PATB-2.

Sent from my SM-A115A using Tapatalk

[skelt101]

I just had an unoriented A5 in my PATB-1. It was in a naturally bright HH Tele, and the highs were a bit much with the stock A5 in that guitar. I really liked what the unoriented mag did for the highs, but it loosened up the lows a bit too much for my liking—I play with a lot of gain sometimes, and it didn’t handle palm muted riffs as well. If I could’ve done oriented on the bass strings and unoriented on the treble strings, that probably would’ve been the perfect pickup for that guitar.

How about a rough cut/unpolished A5…?

[Guitarmusic]

Does anyone feel the PATB-1 sounds compressed? this is pretty subjective, but now that I have played it, it seems pretty compressed when I switch to the bridge pickup. I was thinking of switching to a pickup with a ceramic magnet

[Despair]

The PATB-1b is a high output pickup. So yes, it can push many preamps into compression. It's also very dynamic, so if the preamp has good headroom, it's very responsive.

Pickups with ceramic magnets tend to have higher output and harsher attack, rather the antithesis of less compression...

[Mincer]

The PATB-1 absolutely 'feels' compressed, much like the JB or Custom. It hits the amp pretty hard.

[AlexR]

^ Yeah, its sort of par for the course with a high output pickup if you're comparing it to something lower or vintage strength.
But for a high output pickup its more dynamic.
What the PATB does that others don't do is to stay unfazed with extreme gain, but at the same time deal with the clean channel a bit nicer. You don't tend to get both aspect in 1 pickup.