Why does the A2 mag in my Jazz neck feel so much bigger and hotter than the A 5?

[Ascension]

Have had a Jazz neck in my Carvin DC 127 hardtail with a Perpetual Burn in the bridge. Had ordered a WLH neck from Banjo Mikes when they closed out their SD pickups but they inadvertently sold the last one so settled for the Jazz and some $ back. Never been happy with the Jazz found it thin harsh and weak sounding in this guitar. Tried a mag swap to the A2 to make it a Alnico II pro before I pulled it.
Was very surprised at how much bigger sweeter and fatter the A2 was in this pickup than the A5. Feels MUCH bigger and warmer now. Feels close to my Sentient in the neck on my other solid KOA DC 127 in tone and output and really surprised me. It's not as tight and articulate as the Sentient is with high gain but it's not that far off ether in this particular maple neck alder body with a quilt top guitar. The combo of the A2 mag swapped Jazz and the Perpet in this guitar surprised me. This neck pickup may just stay now but this Sunday will tell for sure once I can get the guitar on stage with the full band.

[Supernautilus]

I had my Jazz A2 briefly in a Telecaster neck position and it was one of the best sounding pickups I've ever heard. Unfortunately I already had that pickup set aside for another guitar or else I would have left it in. I'm still debating buying another one just so I can put another A2 into it lol.

Interestingly, I've read about comparisons between the Jazz A2 and the Alnico II Pro and I think they are the same but some seem to think they aren't. Perhaps someone here can settle that for me. I'd really like to know.

[eclecticsynergy]

Better match for that particular guitar, no doubt. Fatter and sweeter is typical of swapping A2 in place of A5 of course.
But I think it wouldn't necessarily sound bigger in every guitar.

Also, when I pull pickups to do mag swaps, often the pickup height isn't exactly the same afterward.
I don't use specific measurements myself - I normally adjust for the sweet spot.

[eclecticsynergy]

I had my Jazz A2 briefly in a Telecaster neck position and it was one of the best sounding pickups I've ever heard. Unfortunately I already had that pickup set aside for another guitar or else I would have left it in. I'm still debating buying another one just so I can put another A2 into it lol.

Interestingly, I've read about comparisons between the Jazz A2 and the Alnico II Pro and I think they are the same but some seem to think they aren't. Perhaps someone here can settle that for me. I'd really like to know.

Yes, they are exactly the same wind. Magnet is the only difference.

[Supernautilus]

Yes, they are exactly the same wind. Magnet is the only difference.

So I've heard. But here's my issue with that. The EQ curves on the web site show the A2P has having more bass. You would think it would be the other way around since the Jazz is A5. Reduced bass is the first thing I noticed when I put an A2 bar into my Jazz.

So either it's not the same pickup or the EQ curves shown on the website are arbitrary and meaningless. Is that the case perhaps?

[beaubrummels]

So I've heard. But here's my issue with that. The EQ curves on the web site show the A2P has having more bass. You would think it would be the other way around since the Jazz is A5. Reduced bass is the first thing I noticed when I put an A2 bar into my Jazz.

So either it's not the same pickup or the EQ curves shown on the website are arbitrary and meaningless. Is that the case perhaps?

MJ from Duncan already confirmed publicly they are the same coils, only the magnet is different. The threads are on this forum. If you search, you can find them. It came out when they were working on the Slash pickups, which are based on the A2P, and Slash suggested a magnet change and MJ responded to the effect of, "You just reinvented the Jazz pickup."

[freefrog]

Attempt of technical answer - If an A2 sounds "bigger and hotter" than an A5, it's most probably because it rises the inductance and lowers the Q factor accordingly.

All other parms being equal, an A5 will give a resonant peak higher pitched in the frequency range and will make it narrower, focusing the power on the related harmonics.

Now, a short and not fully gaussed A2 instead of a long fully gaussed A5 should have a different effect (and the tonal gap would potentially change according to the foundry providing the mags in any similar comparison) so it's not only a question of alloys...

FWIW. :-)

[Supernautilus]

MJ from Duncan already confirmed publicly they are the same coils, only the magnet is different. The threads are on this forum. If you search, you can find them. It came out when they were working on the Slash pickups, which are based on the A2P, and Slash suggested a magnet change and MJ responded to the effect of, "You just reinvented the Jazz pickup."

I see, interesting. That still leaves me with questions about the EQ charts though. I'll assume they might not be entirely accurate.

[freefrog]

Reduced bass is the first thing I noticed when I put an A2 bar into my Jazz.

So either it's not the same pickup or the EQ curves shown on the website are arbitrary and meaningless. Is that the case perhaps?

A consequence of the ideas that I've tried to share in my previous answer above is that different A2 mags might have different effects in a same pickup.

For instance, A2 is more "inductive" than A5 because of its proportionally higher ferrous content BUT if an A2 has less mass than an A5, it might contain less iron and finally give less inductance to the pickup...

In the same way, a weakly charged A2 should effectively give less bass than a fully charged A5 - unless one of the mags would be a short one, modifying the shape and strength of the magnetic field around the low and high E strings...

IOW, AlNiCo alloy alone doesn't suffice to define a tone.

Not to mention that even if the coils of a Jazz and an A2P are the same, some other parts like the keeper bar and screw poles / slugs might differ and affect the sound as well.

FWIW - 2 geeky cents. :-)

[Chistopher]

I'd say the reason an A2 has more bass in a Jazz (according to your experience, I've never tried it) is because I feel an A2 in most swaps I've done imparts strong low mids. The Jazz has a lot of high bass, so maybe when you do the swap there's a bit of overlap in the frequency response right at the edge of low mids and high bass?

I also don't know about the "MJ said" thing. I've looked and haven't been able to find a primary source on it, just people repeating things. But the gist of what I'm getting is MJ didn't say "it's literally the same pickup" but rather something close enough to that effect to where it could be easily parroted by people looking for cred on internet forums.

[Ascension]

For reference the A2 I used was a full length full strength polished mag. The pickup feels much stronger and is fuller and sweeter sounding than it was with the stock A5. The A5 Jazz felt small harsh and weal this set up doesn't. I expected the softer fuller feel but not that it would feel overall so much hotter. Was the opposite of what I had seen in a swap from A5 to A2 in the past. So far liking what I'm getting but tomorrow in a full band mix live will really tell the tale.

[beaubrummels]

I see, interesting. That still leaves me with questions about the EQ charts though. I'll assume they might not be entirely accurate.

The EQ charts are famously inaccurate. You are better off reading all the opinions of players who have actually used the pickups in their guitars and averaging those opinions to get an idea of what the pickups sound like; coupled with any video demos you can find.

I also don't know about the "MJ said" thing. I've looked and haven't been able to find a primary source on it, just people repeating things. But the gist of what I'm getting is MJ didn't say "it's literally the same pickup" but rather something close enough to that effect to where it could be easily parroted by people looking for cred on internet forums.

The original story where MJ confirmed an A2P with an A5 magnet is a Jazz Model

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/266113-tribute-to-mj-wound-alnico-ii-pro-from-1986-to-2013/page2?260091-Tribute-to-MJ-wound-Alnico-II-pro-from-1986-to-2013=&viewfull=1#post4441758

Another former Duncan employee confirming

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/266113-tribute-to-mj-wound-alnico-ii-pro-from-1986-to-2013?p=4975755#post4975755

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/317150-which-duncans-are-the-same-pickup-but-with-different-magnets?p=5313591#post5313591

Here's a thread where your recollection of this topic was challenged once before:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/320633-full-list-of-duncan-duncan-w-magnet-swap?p=5379963#post5379963

[Chistopher]

Now that I've brushed up on forum lore, it was the Distortion/JB I was thinking of.

[Aceman]

Mids young man, mids.

[eclecticsynergy]

I see, interesting. That still leaves me with questions about the EQ charts though. I'll assume they might not be entirely accurate.

Yes, EQ charts on the SD site are notoriously inconsistent - not just from one model to another, but from the experience of many users.
One problem is that there's only one number covering the whole broad, crucial spectrum of midrange.
DiMarzio recently tried to address this issue: they now list separate low mid and high mid on their charts.
Even that leaves something to be desired IMO. But going to five or seven bands, while it would be pretty helpful, isn't really practical.

EQ charts are only intended as ballpark estimates anyway, a quick sketch before one goes on to find out more about a model.

The thing is, even if they were more accurate, these only describe one aspect of a pickup's overall nature.
Much of a pickup's character (especially with humbuckers) manifests in areas other than its EQ...
A lot of personality lies in looseness vs tightness, immediacy of attack, definition across chords, and single note response up the fretboard.
These are all aspects that an EQ chart just can't address.


With the OP's experience in this case, again I feel likely it's partly down to the general model and to this specific guitar's wood.
(The rest of the rig enters into it too, of course, and your personal preferences in terms of how you set it.)

As Aceman says, big mids make a guitar sound louder overall, especially through an amp with strong midrange response.
It's often said that A2 punches above its weight in terms of perceived volume thanks having a ton of mids relative to A5.

Also, more low mids will make a guitar sound deeper even when they aren't truly in the bass frequencies.
The bass of A5 is strong and tight but it's also fairly deep - some guitars simply don't produce much of that deep bass to pick up.
So the end result of won't always be bigger sounding lows with A5.
It can vary a lot from one guitar to another; it also varies for different winds.
IME swapping mags in a vintage output pickup tends to remake the overall character a bit more than it does in high output ones.