Clarity and note separation under gain

[Rex_Rocker]

I always find it interesting when people speak of clarity and note separation in pickups. What do you think is it that gives a pickup such attributes?

I don't play djent, but I do like some Opeth-y chords here and there, and I've honestly never had any problem hearing the notes in the chords with any decent quality pickup I've tried. I think for me, it has more to do with amp settings.

I've had my phase where I was into low output PAF's, and I really liked the '59B, but then I realized I was having to crank up the gain higher in my settings for it not to sound super dry and undergained. But by that time, I felt I was losing what I was originally looking for in a pickup by having it be low output.

Even the X2N, which I find is dark and bassy, can get pretty clear if you set the amp (and boost if you're using one) just right.

But that has just been my experience. What do you guys think? What pickups do you find do the clarity and chord thing better?

[beaubrummels]

For the pickups portion of the sound, thinking of humbuckers first, IME, a medium to lower wind that is fairly flat in response, or (depending on the amp/settings) particular mid peaks that help distinguish the A, D, G, and B strings, or a higher wind where you either raise the adjustable screws, or lower pickup (if it doesn't have adjustable poles).

For amp settings, a touch of mids sometimes can help (but all amps aren't the same - their "mid" controls are different, so sometimes it's a combination of mid/treble, like on Marshalls, or just the mid, like on Hiwatt). What can muddy note definition, IME, is a high wind with a strong wide mid curve to it, not just a peak, but a wide round Q to the mids, and having it too close to the strings. Too scooped a sound, regardless of whether it's the pickup or the amp, can also obscure the detail of a complex chord under gain for me. But typically under gain, how often does one play full chords that ring out to hear that detail in the first place? But like you say, it is possible to counter the pickup with amp and settings and get to where you need.

I typically play edge of breakup and lower gain, because I like complex chords and hearing all that detail, so I might not have the best input. Pickups IME that give me clarity are the Brobucker, Black Winter set, Pearly Gates set, Jazz set, 59/Custom Hybrid, Seth neck. In general, I find Duncans to be clearer than other brands I've tried (DiMarzio, Electric City, Bare Knuckle) but there are a number of exceptions.

I have less experience attempting gain with single coils, so I don't have strong feedback there. I tend to favor traditional Fender / Strat sounds in singles and either play clean or just a little grit and grind on that.

[Rex_Rocker]

I actually find for me, it's the other way around with mids. Too much mids can also be detrimental to clarity. I guess it depends on the kind of mids we're talking about too. I like scooping some lower mids away because they can make the sound cloudy fast. I'm also not a huge fan of how too much core mids can make the sound honky and vocal. I do like a healthy dose of upper mid cut and clarity, tho.

I personally find the whole "you need mids to cut through a mix" approach is a bit overblown these days. Yeah, I agree, don't run your Dual Rectifier with the mids on 0, but you also gotta consider guitar isn't the only instrument in the mix.

I personally like hitting the amp with a really mid-heavy sound (high output mid-heavy wind like a Black Winter or JB or active pickups like Fishmans or EMG's boosted with a TS of sorts), and then balance it out by scooping the amp a little. I personally like amps that are naturally scooped (like a Rectifier) or that sound best when scooped a little (like a 5150). V30's or Greenbacks are going to handle adding those mids back anyways. And then the SM57 is pretty mid-heavy as well.

I love Fishman Fluences, and they do sound very clear, for example, but I've never had problems with EMG's in the clarity department either.

[beaubrummels]

That's why I said, "What can muddy note definition, IME, is a high wind with a strong wide mid curve to it, not just a peak, but a wide round Q to the mids". I think pickups with a particular peak instead, can work for clarity with different amps and levels of gain. It requires some trial and error / mix and match combos to discover the recipes that work, but that's my experience, FWIW.

[Rex_Rocker]

Yeah, I get ya. I think I forgot to say that was my own experience/opinion/taste as well.

[GuitarStv]

I guess reducing the distortion to the point that it doesn't sound muddy any more is out of the question?

[Seashore]

I guess reducing the distortion to the point that it doesn't sound muddy any more is out of the question?

Not at all, it's the key to good metal tone in my book.

[Demanic]

I have heard a friend of mine make the muddiest neck pickup into a heavily distorted amp sound clear and defined. It's in your technique.

[jeremy]

technique definitely has something to do with it

[zionstrat]

Agree with everything above, and here's a few other tricks if you like pedals. I learned a long time ago, from Tom Schultz from Boston, how to get incredible crunch rhythm and leads with clarity when you need it.

I started with a brightish, full range humbucker, usually in the bridge.. low or mid output to preserve the highs. and then run through EQ that pretty much spikes the mids.

When you run that through a high gain amp, you get extremely thick compressed mids,

The next step is a bit tricky from a signal path, but after the head it's great to use a second EQ to cut back pretty much all of the mids that you added in the first EQ.

When the second EQ is cutting, you can get very clean and individual notes depending on how much gain the head is providing. Distinct but powerful.

But when you bypass the second EQ, you get ridiculous thick mids for soloing, so the best of both worlds.

I had to use a lot of tricks to get a line signal back from the amp to run through the second EQ so this isn't all that easy with real amps. This is a lot easier modeling or in the studio, because you can flip the second EQ on and off in the daw.

Just to be clear, I don't play any style of music that uses this anymore. I'm almost always playing on the edge of distortion so that I can reduce volume for cleans and get a little crunch when I bring the volume back up.

But it really did the trick.

And while I'm at it, I had a totally different rig at one point where I ran through a panning pedal with one output going into a clean chorus Yamaha solid state and the other going into my crunch amp of the week.

Once again, you need that full range pickup signal to start with but got some incredible clean individual notes when the pan pedal was back, some neat mixed tones in the middle, and big crunch when the pedal was full on.

[misterwhizzy]

Rex, I like the story you told of your tone journey, and I think it’s somewhat important for each player to follow his or her own path the way you have to figure out what works for that tone in your head. I started out thinking I needed high output pickups into a high-gain tube amp, and I’ve arrived at a point where I like low output pickups into pedals driving a cleanish amp. But it took me a long, long time to figure all that out.

[JOLLY]

I totally agree with the technique statements.

[Rex_Rocker]

I guess reducing the distortion to the point that it doesn't sound muddy any more is out of the question?

I think my post might've been misread. I don't have a problem with pickups sounding muddy with gain. I agree, less gain pretty much always equals more clarity. But I also like 90's and 2000's metal tones. I needz me some gainz! :P

I'm just wondering about other people's experiences with "clear" pickups. I mean yeah, I could dial in my amp for my DiMarzio X2N, and then plug in a '59B. Initial impressions will be, yeah, it's clearer. But it's also drier, thinner, undergained, and weak. I mean, some people might like that. I don't. I do like clear, but I also like heavy. I'm more into Carcass style of tones than Kill 'Em All just to name an example. And by the time I dial my amp in to make the '59 sound heavy, is there really a benefit to using the '59 as opposed to the X2N? That was my point.

I'm not saying pickups don't matter either. I swear by Fishman KSE's, Moderns, and Duncan Black Winters, and the X2N would certainly not be my first choice, but not really because it's not clear per-se, but because I have to struggle less to dial in a tone I like with my go-to pickups.

JME

[Rex_Rocker]

Rex, I like the story you told of your tone journey, and I think it’s somewhat important for each player to follow his or her own path the way you have to figure out what works for that tone in your head. I started out thinking I needed high output pickups into a high-gain tube amp, and I’ve arrived at a point where I like low output pickups into pedals driving a cleanish amp. But it took me a long, long time to figure all that out.

Exactly! I think my point is... yeah, like you said, that is my experience, what about you guys'? What makes you say "yeah, this pickup is clear and has great note separation"?

Then again my concept of "note separation under gain" is more like Opeth as opposed to, say, Periphery.

[eclecticsynergy]

Of course a singlecoil has better definition than just about any humbucker - they sense a narrower section of string, after all.
Certain humbuckers really do seem to have better clarity and separation compared to others though.
I find the Brobucker has a slight chiminess to it that keep things well-defined.
The ParallelAxis pickups are like that too, and the Fuglybuckers.

I have a number of pure-handwound Zhangbuckers that boast exceptional string-to-string definition.
My various Rewinds rival them. And the Tom Holmes.
However, those are all PAF types so they'd be expected to be clearer overall than hotter hums.


Totally agree with most of the advice above about high output vs low output pickups.
Also about technique and especially gain - IMO most players these days - including veteran pros - use way more gain than they need.

As for midrange, IMO the mids that lend extra clarity & cut usually aren't the same as what you get from the Mids knob on an amp.
Cranking the upper mids pre-gain and trimming them back later is a great hack, though a bit complicated IRL.
Still, combining a treble booster pedal (actually a mid boosts) with a graphic in the loop to cut mids afterward isn't impractical.