59 + JB = ?

[orpheo]

I don't doubt those sound killer, but somehow, I have a hard time believing something with 10K resistance and an aged magnet gets "medium" output.

I once put an Alnico3 in a Custom. 14K wind and a superweak magnet. The drop in output was extremely significant but tonally, it worked so, so well. As if the weak magnet gave it some openness, the strong coils some natural compression (it doesn't work that way, I know, I'm just trying to verbalize my experience with this pickup). The output of a pickup is determined by magnet type, magnet strength, wire gauge, insulation, and turns of wire on the bobbin. To simply read 'alnico X + xxK Ohm = y mVolt' is extremely ignorant and dare I say, foolish.

[jeremy]

the a3 custom is a really nice pup

[Rex_Rocker]

I once put an Alnico3 in a Custom. 14K wind and a superweak magnet. The drop in output was extremely significant but tonally, it worked so, so well. As if the weak magnet gave it some openness, the strong coils some natural compression (it doesn't work that way, I know, I'm just trying to verbalize my experience with this pickup). The output of a pickup is determined by magnet type, magnet strength, wire gauge, insulation, and turns of wire on the bobbin. To simply read 'alnico X + xxK Ohm = y mVolt' is extremely ignorant and dare I say, foolish.

I understand there's a lot of factors that come into play. I've never tried the pickup myself. But then, what is it that raises the output of that pickup so much as to reach "medium output" levels?

Because as far as I understand, that pickup is wound with the same type of wire (insulation included) as the 59 and WLH, correct? It's only roughly 15% more overwound than the WLH, and then, t's got a weaker magnet than the WLH. And the WLH is certainly not medium output. At least not IME.

But maybe there's something going on under the hood of the Brobucker that I'm missing? Maybe the winding pattern maximizes the output? Maybe it is that overwound?

I'm not assuring it is not medium out. How can I when I've never even tried it? I'm just saying I don't see how it can be. But maybe I am being too narrow sighted and missing something. Would love to be proven wrong.

[orpheo]

I understand there's a lot of factors that come into play. I've never tried the pickup myself. But then, what is it that raises the output of that pickup so much as to reach "medium output" levels?

Because as far as I understand, that pickup is wound with the same type of wire (insulation included) as the 59 and WLH, correct? It's only roughly 15% more overwound than the WLH, and then, t's got a weaker magnet than the WLH. And the WLH is certainly not medium output. At least not IME.

But maybe there's something going on under the hood of the Brobucker that I'm missing? Maybe the winding pattern maximizes the output? Maybe it is that overwound?

I'm not assuring it is not medium out. How can I when I've never even tried it? I'm just saying I don't see how it can be. But maybe I am being too narrow sighted and missing something. Would love to be proven wrong.

Oh, good question.

Let me see how to answer this as simple as possible.

When you add more winds to the coil, into 'overwound' territory. there are a few things at play.

1) insulation. What kind of insulation are you using? For the brobucker it has to be a superthin insulation, how else can you get that much of that thick wire on the bobbin?
2) wind pattern matters, yes, as you add more copper to the bobbin, you don't just amp the millivoltage a coil can produce. You also change the EQ dramatically.

That last part is the most important thing. The Fletcher Munson curve comes into play



The human hearing does not experience frequency linearly, and the pickups don't produce frequency linearly either. By ramping up the amount of copper on a bobbin, you don't just create more millivolts but the curve shifts as well, often into a territory where we experience a huge increase in a frequency range we can already hear. Now, the danger of overwinding 42awg is that you get SO much of that EQ in the pickup's tone, that it starts to sound mushy, oversaturated, woofy. To combat that, a weaker magnet is used. The weaker magnet will, by default, create a weaker voltage. Take a look again at the Custom3 versus Custom5. The weaker magnet completely changed pick attack, the compression, the saturation, and shifted the EQ a bit as well, but was it 30% weaker than a Custom5?! Hell no. Alnico3 is I believe 30% weaker than Alnico5. No, the pickup had less output, sure, but didn't go into PAF territory of output, at all.

The voltage of the pickup is not just determinated by wire gauge, magnet type, magnet strength, etc. It is a friggin complicated situation :P

[orpheo]

Look at, for example, the Jerry Donahue tele pickup (7.7k, Alnico 2) versus the Vintage 54 bridge pickup (7K Alnico 5). The JD sounds LOUD, brash, thick, chewy, and a LOT louder than the Vintage54. The difference is significant. 0.7K is only approximately 500 turns if memory serves, so it's not that (both have 43 awg ). The alnico2 is also a lot weaker than alnico5, so you'd guess that makes the difference. No?

No.

The difference is that the JD is wound to have a bump in a frequency range that just sits better in our ears, distorted even more so.

or take a look at Dimarzio's Steve's Special: that's an 18K pickup, ceramic magnet. You'd expect that pickup to be a firebreather! But... it's only got 390milivolts output, compared to Crunchlab with 410mv and 11K and a ceramic magnet. DCR does not equal output, at all. it never has, it never will, and with so many parameters that are relevant to the story, only experience of using a pickup can guide you.

[Rex_Rocker]

Look at, for example, the Jerry Donahue tele pickup (7.7k, Alnico 2) versus the Vintage 54 bridge pickup (7K Alnico 5). The JD sounds LOUD, brash, thick, chewy, and a LOT louder than the Vintage54. The difference is significant. 0.7K is only approximately 500 turns if memory serves, so it's not that (both have 43 awg ). The alnico2 is also a lot weaker than alnico5, so you'd guess that makes the difference. No?

No.

The difference is that the JD is wound to have a bump in a frequency range that just sits better in our ears, distorted even more so.

or take a look at Dimarzio's Steve's Special: that's an 18K pickup, ceramic magnet. You'd expect that pickup to be a firebreather! But... it's only got 390milivolts output, compared to Crunchlab with 410mv and 11K and a ceramic magnet. DCR does not equal output, at all. it never has, it never will, and with so many parameters that are relevant to the story, only experience of using a pickup can guide you.

But at that time, you're getting into perceived output rather than actual mV realdings, no? Or am I misunderstanding?

Because in my experience, for example, I have a Black Winter and an X2N at hand right now. Both super hot. I've even had them both in the same two guitars at some point. But the Black Winter is so much more mid-focused, especially around the area of the cutting brash upper mids, that if you play them both clean, yeah, the 'Winter might come off as louder.

I have no way of measuring mV, but I have recorded DI's for both plugged into the same interface with the same input gain settings. And they both peak (and have vallies) at roughly the same level. So in reality, the BW is not higher output than the X2N.

But that means their mV readings should not be affected even if the 'Winter is putting so much energy in the high mids where it's making it seem louder than it actually is.

Or am I misinterpreting?