Bare Knuckle impressions

[Inflames626]

I thought I'd get everyone's feedback on Bare Knuckle.

I've yet to try them. Being a British company they are pretty expensive here in the States. I'd say they cost new about what Gibson pickups do. Maybe a 20-33% markup, if not more. I mean, they make Barts (Bartolini) look cheap. BK is getting into boutique German gear territory, or maybe a high end U.S. company like Conklin basses.

Mostly I remember them becoming popular around 2010 (they were started in 2003) mainly for their striking pickup cover designs. It would be like if you took a Vai Jem fretboard inlay and put it on a pickup cover. Beautiful to look at for sure.

These days, though, with so many pickup manufacturers, I've found I like something from everyone, and so I'm everyone's customer.

Yet, for the prices BK charge, it's hard to justify trying them out if you're not sure you can flip them to recoup cost.

Meanwhile, I can look to EMG, Seymour Duncan, and DiMarzio and say, "There's a proven track record of my favorite artists using that model going back decades."

Indeed, there's just a pride of ownership in knowing I use the same gear as my influences, whereas with Bare Knuckle and other newer companies, it's just another pickup, albeit well-made.

I'm sure in 20 years a kid will buy a BK pickup because Misha Mansoor used it. Meanwhile, I could care less about djent.

Anyway, I thought I'd get everyone's feedback. Much thanks.

[JOLLY]

Yeah, they're a tad expensive. I'd like to try some of their lower priced Boot Camp series of pickups. Their Boot Camp True Grit humbuckers and Boot Camp Brute Force Tele pickups appeal to me.

[Seashore]

I love their stuff. They don't all fit my taste but the ones that are right for me are my favorite pickups. Lots of detail and pick attack, exactly the feel I'm looking for. It turns out that all my favorites are asymmetrically wound. My Explorer currently has a Rebel Yell in the bridge. I had a Cold Sweat in there for over 10 years and was really happy with it - I might put it back in now that the guitar is tuned low again. The RY is bright and clear with a lot of attack and a really nice subtle A5 sponginess; the CS responds in a similar way but it's firmer, ceramic magnet, crunchy without being harsh. I've also used:

Crawler - good rock pickup, not bright or bitey enough for me
Nailbomb - great pickup along the lines of CS but hotter and with more mids, I would have kept it if I had a home for it
Brute Force - they're ok but a bit bland, still decently crunchy and detailed, not inspiring
Warpig - the jury is still out; I just swapped the bridge magnet for a ceramic and I'm going to put it back in the Epiphone. Needs more teeth.

Those are for the bridge pickups, I've also used the neck pickups of most of those sets but I'm much less picky about them and don't have good feedback on them.

I like BKPs best in warmer/thicker guitars, Explorers, LPs. Duncans and Gibsons are a better fit in my brighter guitars. But I prefer a bright pickup in a warm guitar to the other way around. Prices are nuts. I got most of them used for decent prices before the market totally blew up, it seems like you can find like 2 or 3 good deals a year now. But on the other hand if I get one I like it'll stay in that guitar for life, and resale value is good. Trying to get the Bare Knuckle "sound" is why I made that 7 string JB/Brute Force ceramic hybrid a few weeks ago, and it worked out great... But I have to admit I'm still tempted to get a Cold Sweat or Rebel Yell 7 for the bridge of my LP.

[freefrog]

Here in Europe, prices are not the same: made in USA = more expensive... And BK "Boot Camp" products are even low priced compared to American products from big names.

Regarding the brand in general: BK pickups are hand wound, with the related characteristics (which make me find totally logical what Seashore says above about BK's as appreciated in warmer / thicker instruments). YMMV.

[beaubrummels]

My only experience is this:
I chased Jimmy Page tone for about 6-7 years. Tried dozens of combinations. For the bridge position, only the Bare Knuckle Black Dog got it dead on right.

(For the neck, still haven't nailed it, but a 59/A4, Jazz neck or Seth neck came close. Still not 'the one' for the neck, though.)

[Inflames626]

Here in Europe, prices are not the same: made in USA = more expensive... And BK "Boot Camp" products are even low priced compared to American products from big names.

Regarding the brand in general: BK pickups are hand wound, with the related characteristics (which make me find totally logical what Seashore says above about BK's as appreciated in warmer / thicker instruments). YMMV.

freefrog , my understanding is all the EU and most Western nations have a value added tax, as well. Canada does at the federal level.

The U.S., being tax averse, does not.

I know when I order Floyd Rose bridges from Schaller the price in Euros is pretty staggering until I enter in my shipping address as the USA and then the German VAT is removed.

There actually isn't much difference in ordering directly from Schaller and having it mailed here via DHL vs. buying a Schaller bridge from a retailer.

[freefrog]

Yep, we have taxes... and those who import American products for our local market have to be paid.

I've often ordered directly in USA, in Japan and so on to obtain the lowest possible prices. But when one needs a replacement product quickly delivered (or for people who don't want to deal with the incertitudes of direct ordering), there's no other choice than spending money.

It explains the success of local brands here... and in UK: when a set of BK the Mule is a few pounds less expensive than a pair of Duncan Bonamassa in English webshops, the commercial success of BK becomes more understandable, I think. :-)

[Inflames626]

Yep, we have taxes... and those who import American products for our local market have to be paid.

I've often ordered directly in USA, in Japan and so on to obtain the lowest possible prices. But when one needs a replacement product quickly delivered (or for people who don't want to deal with the incertitudes of direct ordering), there's no other choice than spending money.

It explains the success of local brands here... and in UK: when a set of BK the Mule is a few pounds less expensive than a pair of Duncan Bonamassa in English webshops, the commercial success of BK becomes more understandable, I think. :-)

freefrog , I would think with Brexit and the English Channel ordering from the UK would be slightly more expensive than ordering from mainland Europe. My guess is Germany builds most things sold on the Continent followed by France and Italy.

[Inflames626]

Also, the point I was trying to make with Schaller is, you would think Bare Knuckle would have a retail distribution network here by now that would make their prices on par with Seymour Duncan, EMG, and DiMarzio.

I mean, Marshall amps are competitively priced with Mesa Boogie and those Marshalls have to be imported from the UK, also.

Meanwhile BK remains very expensive.

[freefrog]

Sure, the Brexit has muddied the water of (inter)national orders... :-P

...but a few months ago, a BK Boot Camp Brute Force single coil for Strat could still be bought from Thomann (well-known German online-seller) for twice less than a Duncan SSL1 in the same shop.

The example of amps will inspire me a similar testimonial : I've a Mesa here among other amps but I've paid it noticeably more than my Marshall and boutique amps from USA are currently way more expensive than Marshall's at Thomann.

So (and without any desire to argue pettily about that), my probably gross understanding is still that US pays more for foreign products exactly like we have to spend more for American stuff.

Now, granted, some importers probably take more money than others on the sales transiting through their hands. ;-)

[Rex_Rocker]

There are a couple of BK sets I'd REALLY like to try. Namely, the Aftermaths and the Black Hawks (omitting the fact that they're really uncomfortably named).

There are a few things stopping me.

1. The price. Yep, agreed, they're expensive to get, and I would really feel compelled to drop that kind of money if some of my favorite tones were recorded with them or if an artist I looked up to used them. Sadly, I'd be shooting blind if I ordered a set, so I haven't made up my mind to drop that kind of money on pickups. Maybe some of the stuff Nolly has produced was using BKP's? Haven't really looked into it, but maybe some Bleed from Within tones I like. I'd much rather order Lundgrens first if I was going to order something boutique and expensive, tho.

2. I don't like the association with the whole Djent kid scene. Much like we were speaking about you not liking Metalcore, I feel the same about Djent. Or at least the kind of cookie cutter Periphery Djent. I love Meshuggah, but they've been around since the 80's, so totally different vibe. I do like Nolly as a producer/engineer, but he does come across as an uptigh guy with rich parents at times.

3. The fact that they're handwound. Yep, that's a double-edged sword. On one hand, yeah, they're handwound, that's fancy. I like craft beer, for example, so that's kind of up my alley. But on the other hand, they downright state their pickups all sound "unique". That's the whole Fishman selling point: they're all consistent. From other brands, you get the occasional dud. I know I've gotten a couple of Duncan duds myself from first-hand experience. Now to run like twice the risk with BKP's, I'm not sure I'd like to run the risk when ordering expensive pickups.

That's my view.

[Inflames626]

There are a couple of BK sets I'd REALLY like to try. Namely, the Aftermaths and the Black Hawks (omitting the fact that they're really uncomfortably named).

There are a few things stopping me.

1. The price. Yep, agreed, they're expensive to get, and I would really feel compelled to drop that kind of money if some of my favorite tones were recorded with them or if an artist I looked up to used them. Sadly, I'd be shooting blind if I ordered a set, so I haven't made up my mind to drop that kind of money on pickups. Maybe some of the stuff Nolly has produced was using BKP's? Haven't really looked into it, but maybe some Bleed from Within tones I like. I'd much rather order Lundgrens first if I was going to order something boutique and expensive, tho.

2. I don't like the association with the whole Djent kid scene. Much like we were speaking about you not liking Metalcore, I feel the same about Djent. Or at least the kind of cookie cutter Periphery Djent. I love Meshuggah, but they've been around since the 80's, so totally different vibe. I do like Nolly as a producer/engineer, but he does come across as an uptigh guy with rich parents at times.

3. The fact that they're handwound. Yep, that's a double-edged sword. On one hand, yeah, they're handwound, that's fancy. I like craft beer, for example, so that's kind of up my alley. But on the other hand, they downright state their pickups all sound "unique". That's the whole Fishman selling point: they're all consistent. From other brands, you get the occasional dud. I know I've gotten a couple of Duncan duds myself from first-hand experience. Now to run like twice the risk with BKP's, I'm not sure I'd like to run the risk when ordering expensive pickups.

That's my view.

The "Painkiller" set stuck out to me, but that's because of my age and it's a British company going after a British band's sound. It's hard not to say, "That's authentic!"

(Also, Nailbomb was a Max Cavalera/Sepultura side project band from the 90s. That pickup made me instantly associate it with that band although they probably have nothing to do with each other.)

I don't like djent kids because they don't seem like rock stars. They seem like coder kids who post stuff to social media and just happen to play a little guitar while mostly pedaling other content. There's an awkwardness about them that's annoying that they'll try to pass off as "authenticity" in a reality TV vein. And that's when they're not taking piss out of the scene by not taking it seriously. ("Who would go to shows/buy albums/buy merch anymore? I'll just go here as a social experience and stand here filming on my phone so I can post something to Instagram and get likes.")

Hand winding, point to point wiring, etc., are all marketing terms that don't mean that much to me precisely because of inconsistency and increased cost that incurs.

Am I proud of the fact that I have a Full Shred bridge repaired to spec by MJ? You bet.

But the reason why you had such variation from the 50s-70s on Fender/Gibson stuff was their lack of precision relative to now. So whenever they sell a 57 or 62 or 68 reissue of something, this tells me nothing beyond a vague expectation of "later year, more output." By 1975 no one seems to care anymore and it becomes, well, sorta crap relative to what came before. But that was pretty much the state of ALL American manufacturing by the mid 70s.

This leads me back to my original question of my not understanding why Marshall isn't more expensive than Mesa when both BKP and Marshall stuff is imported.

Doubtless Marshall is a much bigger operation than BKP and so Marshall can leverage economy of scale and dealer networks, but if you want a tone upgrade, which are you more likely to upgrade: pickups or get a new JVM head? The profit margin on BKP just seems ridiculous.

P.S. I like craft beer too, but if it has to come mass produced, I'll take the darkest Guinness I can get.

[Rex_Rocker]

I don't like Guinness, but I've never actually had Irish Guinness. The stuff I've tried has been kinda plain and soft for a Stout. Not huge into Stouts myself, but I do appreciate a good Stout every now and then. But since I don't like the local Canadian or Mexican-produced Guinness, and I'm not crazy about Stouts in general, I haven't gotten out of my way to find a "real" Guinness.

I had a bad experience when everyone kept telling me Dutch Heineken tastes so much better than the stuff they license for other places to produce. I tried it. Did it taste better? Marginally. Did it taste good? Not to me. But that's just me, personally. I'm the minority, though. I'm sure Heineken or Guinness wouldn't be so popular and widespread if they weren't making something good.

For me, I just don't identify with Djent music. I haven't gone deep into the rabbit hole, TBH. But it doesn't really interest me. Especially not the Djent stuff with poppy vocals like Periphery or Tesseract.

Oh, and for sure Marshall is a BIG operation. I mean, it's Marshall, LOL. You see Marshall cabs at like literally 95% of every medium-sized to big gig.

I was going to say the Painkiller interests me as well, but then I read their copy, and the first thing they mention is it's a Djent pickup, LOL.

[Inflames626]

I'll put it more succinctly:

I don't like djent because it's like you give Millennial gamers and their toxic social media troll culture a musical platform to express themselves.

That and the songs sound like exercises and not music.

And the Chester Bennington style vocals.

Australians say the same about Foster's. "We export it for a reason."

I like my beer like liquid whole wheat bread.

Now other stuff like slivovitz (Serbian plum brandy)? No thanks. Tastes like what I'm guessing jet fuel tastes like. Made my head explode.

[Rex_Rocker]

So you like Wheat Beer? I do too. German stuff in general is solid.

Depends on the mood I'm in. I usually like strong flavors in general. I prefer Tripels and the Belgian Trappist stuff.

As far as mass production, I like Sapporo, Erdinger, Czechvar, Alhambra, Baltika. Don't really know how "mass" production of those brands are, but they're usually readily available. I even like Mexican Modelo, but I guess that's more of a nostalgia thing.

If I'm on party mode, I'll have anything. I just enjoy beer in general.

Many people don't like beer that doesn't taste like "traditional" beer. Or at least, "commercially available" beer. I had some friends from Spain who thought Sour beer and Lambic beer where aberrations. I like them, personally. Variety is the spice of life. It's all about trying new stuff out. Sometimes you come across really good suff even if most of the time you don't. Same reasoning as when I change out pickups even if love them. There's always something new to be had. Sometimes you strike gold, sometimes you don't. But it's worth it taking the risk for me.

As far as Djent... yeah. Not gonna complain. I mean, I am a millennial, I guess? I was born in '87. It's just the style that I don't like. I guess the difference between liking Metalcore and Periphery-ish Djent is at the time Metalcore came out, I was a surface-level "normie" Metal fan, so I had barely scratched the surface of the truly good stuff. By the time Djent was the "in" thing, I was more into actual good Metal stuff, so I was more discriminative of what I like.