100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

chopstherocker said:
Not if you use a good one. They really don't affect the overall tone, just the volume. When you are a working musician, namely the bar circuit and such, you need one much of the time.
Thats just not case. They affect the sound quite noticably. Whether or not you think it sounds bad is a different question.
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

Non-master volume amps are the best things ever as far as I am concerned.
You all have named impressive selections for 'loud' but check these suckers out:
http://www.electricamp.com/catalog.html.

Just imagine one of there NMV heads(200 watt version) into a 8x10, 6x12 or dare I say it. One of those unheard of things they supposedly have in the making........... 6x15.
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

I gig weekly, use a Weber Mass, I record at least a couple times a month with no attenuator. At gigging volumes the difference is extremely slight if any. It seems I am reading lots of advice from folks who have very little hands on time with the current set of attenuators. Even at low volumes, for home practice, it is remarkable how good mine sounds. I hate the sound of a master volume amp with the pre dimed and the post on 1. Buzzy and thin. My Laney Pro Tube 50 is a perfect example, you listen to that amp attenuated at practice levels vs with the post dimed vs useing only the amps master volume, there is no comparison as to what sounds better. You get fullness, clarity, sustain and you can still hear the TV if you like. As far as the 18 watt thing, I have several and love them. However, there is no 18 watter that has the bottom and fullness of a 100 watter. My heads (16 of them)range between 15 and 90 watts. I use them all and they all have very unique qualities that are completely different than each other, attenuated or not, their voice comes through completely. I think the Attenuator of this current age is the best tool I have ever come across for useing my vintage heads.

Anyone who wants to A/B with or w/o it, contact me and we will fire all them amps up and hear just how good these things sound. ( being a MN resident helps!! lol)
 
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Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

hmmmm I don't want any geeky internet arguments
BUT ACTUALLY MOST AMP COMPANIES RESPECT THE HOT PLATE INCL THE IMPACT (OR LACK THEREOF) IT WOULD HAVE ON WARRANTY.

It is other attenuators such as the POWERBRAKE which several companies will not endorse. Most trannies are built to run for many years at high power.

The current run of Hot Plates are excellent, esp for recording. I do feel they color the sound a touch. However, there is no better way to get such transparent distortion AND control the volume.

Some people like the AirBrake and there are some other great products from Weber. I like the Hot Plate bc it is small and cheap and works well on any stage. I use mine on stage.

The one drawback is that it tends to have a limiting effect such that any boosters you use will only produce the feel of more gain rather than more volume after a certain point. (catch my drift? I hate elaborating on this...lol too much to type)

The best part of NMV amps is how well they take pedals. I have used some great amps that just don't do pedals well (Rivera (K), Mesa (Recs/Heart), even Bogner (Shiva)to a degree)
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

Guitarist said:
...but also excite me in an alluring way.

How do you personally feel about these monsters?

Pretty much exactly the same .... like an Über-sexy Vampiress: I´d love to have a go (again), because it´s almost certainly bliss, and there´s nothing like your jeans flapping around your ankles.... but I´m not too sure I want to deal with the rest of the consequences :laugh2:
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

Well, being older than dirt, I do remember the days when guys actually used these amps in clubs. Dual Showmans, Twins and Quad Reverbs or even the rather large Super Six Reverb; Marshalls; Ampeg V-4s; Acoustic 150s or 270s; Sunn Model Ts, Concerts or Coliseums--those were all common amps in dance clubs of the late '60 and '70s. Nowadays, of course, it's rare to see a 50/60 watt version of any of those amps. A sixty watt Ampeg V-2 with its larger and ported 412 could darn near tear your head off! Perhaps the worst amp of its day, the Solid State Vox Super Beatle still put out over 120 watts RMS--and those 412s with the twin horns could be really piercing.

And don't forget, a lot of these groups would daisy-chain amps together. Mega PAs were really in their infancy. I remember hearing one group at an outdoor concert in Seattle in 1969--you could hear this Les Paul Gold Top with P-90s and that Marshall 1959 full stack clearly a mile away!

One of the bands that I used to regularly book for gigs at my university was a guitar/bass/B-3/drums group, and the guitarist used a pair of brown 1963 Fender Concert amps, along with an Echoplex. What a great sound! And the guitarist in another group I used to follow played through a Sunn 1200S (4 X 6550s) with a matching Sunn 215 loaded with JBL 15" D-140Fs. He used a Gibson 335, and somehow managed to control the feedback perfectly. Amazing!

I think one of the things that is SO different today is that players play with so much more gain and distortion. And good distorted tone is so much easier to get today than it was in the Sixties. Back then, getting my Band Master to distort was "...just asking to get grounded for a week!", because it would have to be so loud. Thank God for modern technology, but some of those amps sounded really good! I don't think Paul Kossoff is using a pedal on "All Right Now". Neither is Leslie West on "Mississippi Queen", or Clapton on "Crossroads". Certainly those tones are rippin', and classic--yet they are very clean compared to the tones modern amps are capable of producing. Every time I walk through Guitar Center, it hits me that we have a whole generation of kids who can't play a note unless their TSLs or Rectifiers have the gains maxed out.

My main gigging amp these days is a Mesa Mark IV EVM combo (variable power up to 85 watts) with a 112 EVM Theile cab under it--more than enough for most of the places I play. In fact, more and more I'm using either my DC-3 112 combo (35 watts) or a Maverick 212 (30 watts Class A). The trick is of course, to use an amp appropriate to the size of the venue; and larger, more sophisticated PAs are making big amps obsolete.

But without a doubt, the amp I enjoy playing the most is my Mesa Mark III Coliseum 200 watt half-stack. I love the power, the feel of digging into the strings--levelling a small city! It's a glorious sounding amp, but over the years it gets played less and less.

Technology changes things...you don't see as many 427 Hemis, or 396 Super Sports as you used to, either. And just like the gaz guzzling hot rods of that era, those big amps are SO much fun!

Bill
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

OK - I gotta add this having done this experiment myself -

NOTHING, and I MEAN NOTHING sounds as huge as a 100w Marshall. There is something to the design of the circuit and transformer etc etc etc that makes it sound like a BEAST. NOT even a 50w Marshall can give you the same tone.

I know insane techs here in LA who can go on forever on this topic.

On this note, DO NOT buy this BULLSH*T that anything, incl lower wattage amps can compare.

Tell you what, call ANY major tech out there who has any kind of integrity. Tell him you have a 69 Marshall SL and that you want to mod it or sell it for some new master volume amp - THEN you will see a real response. I guarantee they will tell you NOTHING sounds like one, NEVER sell it, keep it forever, they are the most incomparable amps.

IF you don't want a beast and you want something sweeter, look into a 50w Marshall, or get a Budda or Mojave or any clone.

The guys on this Forum who KNOW, are already telling you - NOTHING compares to the real thing. Anyone comparing low wattage fender are probably the type who think a Toyota Corolla S will ride like a 355 in an old Stang. PUH-LEEEEEZ.

DON'T take the word of people who have never owned one or gigged/recorded with one. If you are ever in Los Angeles, there are a couple of people I might point you to when you are ready to buy. They will give you the TRUTH.

ROCK n F----IN' ROLL!
 
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Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

OlinMusic said:
NOTHING, and I MEAN NOTHING sounds as huge as a 100w Marshall. There is something to the design of the circuit and transformer etc etc etc that makes it sound like a BEAST. NOT even a 50w Marshall can give you the same tone.
There's the truth.

My first Marshall was a 76-77 100w NMV. Without a distortion box that amp was useless in clubs. To get that amp sounding good on it's own, I had to literally be out of the room, both my LP Deluxe and my Tele would feed back. It was so unearthly loud through my 4x12, I feared for the walls in our studio. I recorded with it wide open once... once.

3472_p52846.jpg
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

A guy with whom I play a lot has just about any Marshall that is worth having .. All I have is are some 15 and 12 Watters and a bloody JCM800 ! :gurmpy:

But thanks to mr. Jeff Seal I will be able to blow him away with some new guts for that JCM800 that he'll send this week !!! :biglaugh:


Anyway, my buddy has a very nifty sollution for his loud Super Leads (and Super Basses and Major). He has a cab with two Weber MASS motors and two speakers. The amp will give the full wattage and tone to the speakers, unharmed by any attenuators and the MASS motors will soak up quite a bit of power.

Mind you, this is still not an option if you want to use an amp like that and be best friends with the neighbours, but it helps a lot already.


On a different note, the full Weber MASS that normally goes between an amp and a cab doesn't sound that bad to me at all. It does sound very dull on "late night bedroom" level, but I think you could easily use a pedal or headphone amp for such noodling.
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

The only chance I got to hear 100watt marshalls cranked was when I saw Yngwie in 2003... it was the loudest thing I ever heard!
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

About the whole 100w-50w marshalls, I heard the 50w ones tend to be warmer and of course can get more of a cranked sound at lower volumes. I can't wait for my frist Marshall Stack.
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

chopstherocker said:
Not if you use a good one. They really don't affect the overall tone, just the volume. When you are a working musician, namely the bar circuit and such, you need one much of the time.

How can it NOT affect the tone?

One of the key components of an overdriven sound is a speaker that's being pushed. We swap speakers day in and day out to acheive a certain sound. Since the attenuator reduces the load on the speaker there's NO WAY it can't effect the tone.

With that said....I have no use for the 100 watt amp. The kind of venues I play are not ones where I would be able to organically push it in a manner that would make it sound good.

My two "big gun" amps I have are a Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue and a Trace Elliot Velocette 6/15 watter. Both are plenty of fire power for the bars and clubs I play.

The nice thing about small amps is that PA's don't have to get cranked to get to a sweet spot, but guitar amps do.
 
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Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

lol it's great that everyone older than dirt has chimed in and made their age quite clear ....

Just in case you forgot in the middle of your posts - um 800 years has passed and attenuators are pretty amazing now - so you don't have to level a city to get old Marshall tone. Tons of speaker options out there now too from HEMP - yes, its legal for some uses incl speakers, and NO you can't smoke it, hippie. Also, I think one of my point was that they TAKE PEDALS VERY WELL, esp since they have such a simple preamp circuit compared to newer amps like Genz Benz or the Bogner Ecstasy. I also said they work really well in tandem with newer amps like Soldanos, etc. These other guys your same age, ummmm I think their names are Betts and Haynes or something do it - so maybe that gives it the credibility you needed.

BTW we have silicon computer chips now. I am on a computer that fits in my lap. Really, I am.... and you were still using reel to reel machines, punch cards, and vaccum tube comps. How uhhhh 50s of you.

So to the orig. poster - I know people are telling you that 20w combos with not one spec in common can get you the same sound but uhhhhh no. Yes, I know Eric Clapton gets great sounds using $$$ worth of equipment and 10 overdubs, but uhhhh hey used NMV amps a ton - considering he practically invented popular usage of equipment concepts we use to this day.

If you do get a showman or a bandmaster, just remember - some of those models have small transformers. A Mercury Magnetics would really give them a fatter tone. Either way, I'd consider that little Marshall company - I hear they are quite good...lol

I guess reading comprehension is the first thing to go


hahaha sorry, but hey you go on and on about how you were there in the 1889 when electricity was being installed in NYC, you deserve it.
 
Re: 100W Non-Master Amplifiers Scare Me...

Mike M. said:
...another friends 100 watt Hiwatt stack. The power that's unleashed from those things is undesrcibable when opened up. Really, kind of frightening how loud they can get and how they can mess your senses up. I can't imagine how some people can play night after night with those amps behing them at ear level.

I had a Hiwatt Custom 100 for awhile. It was a nice novelty, owning a piece of history, but the thing was completely useless for any practical purpose - just TOO DAMN LOUD. I plugged it into a 2x15 cab I've got on a few occasions just to thrill/disgust visitors, but eventually I traded it for a bass, which is the trade that I most regret doing today - the bass was nothing special (turned out to be a piece of $#!+ actually), but I did need it badly at the time, so it made sense.
 
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