12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

[Jeff_H]

Several of you have commented on how good the GT-M's sound in your amps. I am considering experimenting with some more GOOD tubes since I put my Marshall back together. I am currently running a NOS RTF 12AX7 in V1 and a NOS GE Greyplate 12AX7 in V2. I am using a mix of other new production tubes in V3, V4 and my PI slot.

Do my V3 and V4 slots really make that much difference in tone? Also is it worth it to put a NOS in the PI slot?

Of the true NOS tubes, list me your favorites and then why. I don't mind spending $100 a tube for Mullards or Bugle Boy's if they really are the schnizzle...I just want your opinions.

 

[Curly]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

I tried the new GT tube in V1 of my Blues Junior and went back to the sweeter sounding NOS GE tube. I have a few of those that I save for V1 in a few of my amps.

 

[some_dude]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

I tried the new GT tube in V1 of my Blues Junior and went back to the sweeter sounding NOS GE tube. I have a few of those that I save for V1 in a few of my amps.

How did it compare to other current production tubes?

 

[Scott_F]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

when I retubed my bad cat, I put all of them to the new GT Mullard copies and that amp is so sweet it'll put you into a diabetic coma.

nuff said.

there are some great tubes out there, enjoy the hunt.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

I'm by no means a tube afficianado (Gearjoneser is though), but I think NOS are a waste of money. You have to buy a used tube at an outrageous price and even if you like the tube, when it wears out... and it will not take long... you'll have to shell out more money with the hopes you can find that exact one again.

Everything you've heard about the Mullard RI tube by GT is true. It is amazing. Screw NOS. Buy a tube that is much cheaper (money wise, not quality), something you know will be a good tube and will last a while, and something much easier to find and replace. Pop one in your V1 spot and I guarantee it'll transform your amp as it has mine. Definitely added tons of gain that my JJs were robbing me.

NOS really isn't necessary. If you gig, would you want to gig with something new, or something that has the potential to break down on you because of its age?

Amps like GJ's Ecstasy and my Triamp were actually made to sound incredible with chinese preamp tubes... imagine that. I doubt Reinhold Bogner would be tricking us on that (after all, all his amps come stock with chinese preamp tubes and its for quality reasons, not cost cutting). They were meant to be versatile, killer tone machines, they don't need super quality tubes to sound amazing.

I find there's a balance with everything. You have to weigh how much difference there is in tone vs. how much money it costs and the inconvenience and unreliability of it all. To me, it's a no brainer. Hopefully, the GT 12AX7M is just the start of a new renaissance of tube manufacturing for retro tone and durability.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

I can certainly buy 5 GT-m's for the price of one NOS Mullard, and probably will. What are some of your other favorite NOS tubes and why...give me some examples!

 

[Scott_F]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Chris, i agree with some of what you say and disagree with a lot of it. Preamp tubes last seemingly forever. They just don't get that stressed. NOS ones can last years and years.

If a tube is really New Old Stock, it has not been used. If you are buying from KCA or Lord Valve, you are getting true NOS tubes. Both are trustworthy.

While the prices of NOS stuff will only go up and up and up, one of the reasons that people buy NOS, especially gigging musicians, is that they are for the most part higher quality and they tend to last longer. Back in the day, tubes were a must for military equipment world-wide. There was a need for ultra-reliable stuff. Some of the best buys out there are the JAN tubes and there are tons of them stashed out there. JAN=Joint Army Navy

High specs, ultra reliable. Whether they sound good in your particular application, that's purely subjective.

When you are talking about $8 JJ tubes, sometimes, quantity over quality works out. Now the bar is being rasied from where it was 10 years ago. Tube companies making current stuff are having to step up or they won't be around much longer.

When GT released this Mullard-copy tube (which I actually like a lot), they sell it at a price that is not too far off from what I can get NOS stuff for. that's a deciision that has to be made individually.

I love to support companies that are making tubes now. I used to bash GT as a relabeler only, but now they are making their own stuff. Kudos to them. The new winged C stuff has some good examples, the Chinese tubes that came in my Bad Cat weren't bad, but nowhere near as good as the Groove Tube mullard copies (made in china as well, I hear)

My Pro Reverb is 35+ years old. I'm guessing the tubes in there are not much younger than the amp. The preamp tubes are all Telefunken and RCA and they sound great. They are old as the hills and they sound great. Not microphonic or anything. It amazes me.

Oh well, sorry to ramble.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Oh well, sorry to ramble.

I think you make some very valid points. KCA NOS tubes does provide quality NOS tubes.

I'm quick to think that because a piece of glass is old, it must not be as reliable as something new. I know amps as well as cars were much better made in the past. Thanks for straightening me out on this Scott.

All in all, it just seems so much easier to get good quality that you know is reliable nowadays for much cheaper. However, having some NOS GE or JAN tubes around wouldn't be too shabby either

 

[Scott_F]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

I am like you though, Chris, in that if a current company is making a great tube, it's up to us to support them if at all possible. I want to grab a set of those GT 6L6GE's that they started making. I had a set temporarily in an amp I owned for af ew weeks and they were excellent 6L6's.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

You know what's funny? Tubes are the only thing that have gotten cheaper from the 80's to now.

We've gotten lucky that the coldwar ended, and flooded us with good quality tubes from Russian, Yugoslavia, and China.

I guess a person can buy what they want. While I was moving around amps on a weekly basis, I began pulling the tubes out, and putting cheapos in, before selling it.
Because of that, I started a small collection of NOS tubes I raided from seller amps.
Then, I started doing tone tests between a bunch of amps with all the tubes I had. I started to find that the tube brand didn't really matter, because most amps prefer different tubes, regardless of their price or pedigree. Sure, some are better, but it's best to take your amp, swap a bunch of different tubes, find the ones that sound the best, then use only those for the life of the amp.

Because I'm a cheapass, I have a hard time paying big dollars for a tube, especially since there's so many options these days for cheaper ones. I just let my ears tell me what to use. I absolutely love the new GT12AX7M, but even that tube isn't best suited for some amps. It's a very gainy tube, so it would be best to use in a midgain amp to knock the gain up a notch. In amps like Bogner, H&K, or Soldano, I think I'd stand by the 9th Gen Shuguang/ GT12AX7C Chinese pre. In Matchless, even the owners agree that ALL Tesla JJ sounds best. I found it to be true, too.
In Fender amps, JJ's, GE's, Phillips, Sylvanias and generally NOS tend to sound best.
In most Marshalls, Mullards, Telefunkens, GTM's, GTC's, and Sovtek LPS sound great.
As far as power tubes, I like Svetlanas for their durability, warmth, and compression.
I like Tesla JJ's for their headroom, glassiness, and big open sound.
I've learned that GT are more than other brands labeled "GT" They have extremely tight quality control, and only label the very best "GT" They sell or throw away the rest. That's why they cost more.

 

[edi_87]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Recently i bought a Triamp mk2 and it came with the stock Ruby tubes.. Can you tell me something about them. compare them to other tubes? Never heard about these tubes so don't know if they make my amp shine, or if I did better if I would replace them to other ones...

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Recently i bought a Triamp mk2 and it came with the stock Ruby tubes.. Can you tell me something about them. compare them to other tubes? Never heard about these tubes so don't know if they make my amp shine, or if I did better if I would replace them to other ones...

I can answer that one

Ruby are pretty cheap high gain graded chinese tubes. They're pretty much relabeled stuff with the H&K logo on it. I liked the tone on them.

If I were to change tubes all over again in my Triamp, I'm not sure I'd go with JJs. They smoothen out the amp quite a bit (which is a good thing), but kill the gain in the process... hence, that's why they would work well in an amp like the Chieftain.

Putting a GT12AX7M tube was the best move I could have done at that point. The crunch you get on the Marshall channels and the overall tone is just breathtaking. The articulation is definitely enhanced as well as the bottom end. Before, the JJs detracted away from the bottom end, but now it balances nicely with the bottom end cutting through.

I can't say the JJs were horrible though, on the lead channel, when combined with the GT 12AX7M, I can definitely nail that smooth high gain tone ala Steve Vai on "Die To Live". So in cases like that, the smooth tones that the JJs provide are very useful.

Still, I think next time around, I'd try all chinese like Gearjoneser said. That's what they come stock with and the Shuguang are apparently better made chinese pres so they should work great. Like GJ said, every amp is voiced and setup to sound better with different config. or brands. I guess versatile, high gain amps eat those tubes up so I'd give them a shot. Plus, my Ruby tubes were really noisy, so anything new will be a big surprise.

 

[Curly]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

How did it compare to other current production tubes?

sorry, I only tried in V1 of my main amp

I had to give the GTM a try after what Scott and others here said, as well as what the word of mouth in general was. I also value the opinion of Myles over on guitar amp blueprinting.
Don't get me wrong - I think it's probably a great tube, I just haven't tried it in my other amps yet. I just happened to prefer the GE I'm used to in my Blues Junior.
In general, I tend to save NOS tubes for my vintage amps, to try for a more original tone. In my newer amps - my Blues Junior and DRRI, I've swapped tubes till I found the right combination that worked.
I agree with Joneser:

"...most amps prefer different tubes, regardless of their price or pedigree. Sure, some are better, but it's best to take your amp, swap a bunch of different tubes, find the ones that sound the best, then use only those for the life of the amp."

the best analogy I have for tubes is cooking:
certain dishes require the right combination of ingredients and spices

I was at my amp tech's one day. He was testing one of his 15 watt class A amps. He replaced the V1 preamp tube - a Mullard - with a Chinese tube, shook his head, and said, "it just sounds better"

many say that the JJ is a high gain tube. If you listen to what Myles Rose has to say, the JJ is actually just closer to the gain factor of the NOS 12AX7, which were much more consistent and closer to the spec of a gain factor of 100. It isn't simply a matter of "old is better". The NOS tubes used better ingredients and manufacturing methods. Still, competition has bred better new tubes in an expanding market of revised interest in tube guitar amps and audiophile products.

I'm not sure I'd buy NOS tubes at today's prices. I have a stash of tubes I got years ago when they were more affordable, and there really are a lot of good new tubes out there.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

The cooking analogy is good. Hot spices are great on some dishes, but would be overkill on others.

Regarding Ruby tubes. I've never heard one that was good, and any I've had are now long gone. On that Triamp, I'd use Svetlana power tubes and GT 12AX7C's. My Bogner Ecstasy has Tesla JJ EL-34's, since I wanted less compression and a more glassy and big sound. Otherwise I would have used Svetlana's. I have GT12AX7C's in the preamp gain stages, and use JJ pre's for the PI, FX driver, and clean channel position. The Bogner uses 6 pre tubes. I brought home 3 GT12AX7M mullard copies, thinking I would be in tone heaven. It turned out the GT Chinese still sounded better in that amp. Then, I put those mullard copies in my 50W Jubilee head. Holy Crap! That amp really came alive, and now the gain is so hot, I can get Zakk/Slash tone at any volume on that amp. I have a feeling JCM 800's would really sound great with those new GTM's.

For my clean amps, I still prefer JJ or NOS.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

GJ -

Would you get GT-M's for all 5 positions of the 800 2205? I've currently got an RTF NOS 12ax7 in V1, NOS GE in V2, EH in V3, Mesa in V4 and a balanced JJ in the PI spot.

Give me a rundown of what you'd put where. If I had to pick an artist whose tone I'd like to emulate, it would be Slash...but just a little meatier.

 

[Curly]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Jeff,
I'm sure GJ can give you some tips.

you can also try the Expert Forums
I've seen Myles answer those type of specific questions regarding tube recommendations. Besides the tone you're aiming for, I'd suggest including info about what you feel you're lacking now.

Peace

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Jeff, first of all a stock 2205 has 3 pre tubes in it, so I'm assuming your mod added some tubes?

I'd put either Tesla JJ E-34L's (10% more fatness and output than EL-34's) or Svetlana =C= logo EL-34's in it. Get a GTM for 1st pos and 2nd pos, and use your other best tubes for 3 & 4. Leave that balanced JJ in the PI, unless your RTF or GE sound better there. You probably won't hear any audible difference in any position past 1 and 2, realistically, so just use your best tubes in those positions just for good measure. That mesa tube is probably a Russian Sovtek.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Actually the 2205 (4212 Combo) that I have comes stock with 5 pre-amp tubes.

I'm going to order some GT-M's from Todd and throw them in there. I really don't feel that my tone is lacking, in fact I've never been happier with it. I can always just hear annother tweak or 2 that would make it better. I remember what a difference the NOS tubes made in my amp before it was modded...now that it's voiced differently I can't help but think the same tubes are not what's best for it's voice.

 

[Thames]

Re: 12AX7 - NOS vs New GT Reissues

Wow, interesting stuff.

Chris, I also believe that NOS tubes are way better than current production. So far, speaking of preamp tubes, I've tried EH, JJ, Mullard, Telefunken, Tungsols, Sovtek, old Chinese and some older GT-C. I loaded my Laney with a Mullard 12AX7A in V1 and I wouldnt change it for anything else. EH, JJ and other current dont even come close. Now I HAVE to try the GT-M. Soon, very soon!

However, I loaded V2/V3 with JJs and V4 with a balanced-triodes EH. They are great tubes for the money. I dont know how to explain it right, but NOS DO sound better. And considering they last many, many years... however I wouldnt go NOS for power tubes. I would if I had the money, but not the case so... the JJ E34L are just fine!