JMP/HBE
Well-known member
100%
I will say Friedman knows his way around a circuit and then some but it general massed produced PCB amp sometimes lack all the special asymmetrical characteristics and nuances of hand built amps.
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2007 Soldano SLO-100
- Thread starter JMP/HBE
- Start date
100%
I will say Friedman knows his way around a circuit and then some but it general massed produced PCB amp sometimes lack all the special asymmetrical characteristics and nuances of hand built amps.
Cynical
Active member
Which Bogner mini amps are you referring to as being built by BAD -- the 3534 or the Mini? The 3534 was confirmed to be made by some factory in Poland, and the Mini (and the Friedman Mini) is rumored to be made in Asia somewhere, not by BAD. It's highly unlikely that BAD would make a head that cheaply.
Re: not going to PCBs until the early 2000s, Bogner has been set up for PCB for a longer time than that; the Snorkeler mod was done with the addition of a second PCB to a 2203. Also, there's simply no way you're going to make an amp with switching like the XTC with PTP construction.
PCB construction doesn't guarantee a better layout, no, but it raises the "ceiling". Steve Freyette has some interesting essays on this that I'm too lazy to Google right now, and John Suhr says some interesting things here High Quality PCB Amplifiers | Page 8 | The Gear Page, but in short, a PCB amp done well can actually sound better than it's possible to make a PTP amp sound because there's less impedence and capacitance in the traces than there is in the wires used to wire a PTP amp.
At any rate, those JCM 800s that you say "take the win" in "reliability, ease of service, and quality of build" are PCB (every JCM 800 ever was PCB, since the switch was made in 1973), so trying to demonize smaller builders for moving to PCB (as you do in the rest of the post) is silly..
Re: not going to PCBs until the early 2000s, Bogner has been set up for PCB for a longer time than that; the Snorkeler mod was done with the addition of a second PCB to a 2203. Also, there's simply no way you're going to make an amp with switching like the XTC with PTP construction.
PCB construction doesn't guarantee a better layout, no, but it raises the "ceiling". Steve Freyette has some interesting essays on this that I'm too lazy to Google right now, and John Suhr says some interesting things here High Quality PCB Amplifiers | Page 8 | The Gear Page, but in short, a PCB amp done well can actually sound better than it's possible to make a PTP amp sound because there's less impedence and capacitance in the traces than there is in the wires used to wire a PTP amp.
At any rate, those JCM 800s that you say "take the win" in "reliability, ease of service, and quality of build" are PCB (every JCM 800 ever was PCB, since the switch was made in 1973), so trying to demonize smaller builders for moving to PCB (as you do in the rest of the post) is silly..
This thread inspired me to go back and watch the Soldano episodes of Tone Talk (#19 and #59).
Especially on #19 they discuss many of the things talked about earlier in this thread.
So here is my question: (having never owned/played an SLO-100)
They say the Rectifier preamp is a direct 99.5% ripoff of the SLO, but are they talking about vintage or modern high gain of the Rectifier, or does it matter.
Is the vintage/modern selection on a Rectifier simply a selection of negative feedback amounts?,,,,,,,just altering the presence and not really changing the circuits?
If we ran the preamp section (loop send) of an SLO-100 through the slave input (Mesa power section) of a 90's Dual Rectifier,,,would it sound the same as just running the Dual by-itself?
Especially on #19 they discuss many of the things talked about earlier in this thread.
So here is my question: (having never owned/played an SLO-100)
They say the Rectifier preamp is a direct 99.5% ripoff of the SLO, but are they talking about vintage or modern high gain of the Rectifier, or does it matter.
Is the vintage/modern selection on a Rectifier simply a selection of negative feedback amounts?,,,,,,,just altering the presence and not really changing the circuits?
If we ran the preamp section (loop send) of an SLO-100 through the slave input (Mesa power section) of a 90's Dual Rectifier,,,would it sound the same as just running the Dual by-itself?
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Cynical
Active member
Depends on which Rectifier. The earliest Rectifiers had a pre-amp identical to the SLO on the red channel, but a *very* different power section. By Rev E, though, this was no longer the case (although the topology was still similar, the differences were major enough that the sound isn't really close at all). Pretty much every "OMG, the Recto/5150/[high gain amp here] copied the SLO!!!" claim is highly exaggerated.
Cynical, I think you may be taking some of what I say out of context or just too literally? What amps do people most commonly buy? Mid-range models, the majority of people are not buying Freidman's, Bogner's, or some other not truly Boutique name. I.E. 9 out of 10 amps in circulation are PCB-based. So when I say if I had to make a list of amps ( that are in common circulation ) that I feel are easier to service and more reliable, Marshall's older 2 channel and top tier amps are what I would say are the best in the bunch. You DO NOT want to find a VOX on your desk from the 70's era...
The best-made amps in the world? Mine if you ask me, but you and hundreds of others on this forum may not agree : ) My amps are made to the best and most agreed upon safety standards, I use only the best parts and components that you can get, I over-engineer the amp to not only last FOREVER, but to only fail because of abuse or timely expected failure of the parts. My cable runs are as short and practical as possible, and my amps are all tested through a grueling process of FULL output over several DAYS in order to be sure that there is no infant mortality. My amps are all tuned individually one by one to be the best that amp can be, so no two amps have exactly the same value parts, and no two amps will sound the same either. The amp you get will sound like the amp YOU get. Do you care about all that? Probably not, and there are a million others that won't either, that is why only those who want my amps buy them. I don't sell it for being more than it is. And I sure as heck don't want anyone who doesn't actually want the amp to buy it. I don't make them to be a trial amp, I make them to be a lifetime amp. I spent 20 years getting to the point where I can offer such a product. I WILL NOT sell out to BAD, or cop to some distribution deal. If you want my amp, you will find me, or should I say my amp will find you.
In regards to Bogner and his exact history, I can only say that I know he HAD Turret board amps earlier in his career, and he also had some that had copper clad, turret boards that had the copper etched away to reveal a circuit board like appearance. I.E a more " homemade " version of a printed circuit board. My point is that he DID NOT build his amps initially with printed circuit boards as you find in Fender and Marshall amps. No more, no less. As to who makes his mini-series? Who knows, who cares, if it ain't BAD, then it ain't any better, to be honest.
Again, you heard me incorrectly about PCB vs any other build format, They are ALL good and ALL can be GREAT, but turret board construction in my experience is the best all-around. PCB construction is only better when all the best technologies and practices are utilized. Unfortunately, most amps are not actually utilizing the best of what PCB technology has to offer. Not in Two Rocks, not in Fuchs, not in Bogner, very few to none of them. Do you yourself know how to design a truly better PCB than can be done with Turret boards or PTP? There is a lot that goes into it, and you still end up with the downsides of PCB technology in the end. Limited service life. The only eternal service life available is for PTP builds. If any one part goes bad, simply replace it. If the PCB goes tits up, you replace it and everything on it. Can a PCB be better, sure, but only if the time, money, and energy was spent making it so.
Everyone is copying everyone, who all copied the RCA manual. So you can thank RCA for most of what we use today. My work is nothing to call home about and protest as being 100% unique. My stuff is just different than what any other is offering. That is all each builder is trying to do. Just make something that is different from the others. Dr. Z is FAR from novel in any of his designs. Most all of his stuff is a homage to some other tried and true amp from yesteryear. Whether any amp is made from PCB, PTP, or turret board construction, MOST are made to meet a budgetary goal. Why is PCB technology only offered in affordable amps? Because it was cheaper to make and utilize. VHT used to make their amps with eyelet boards ( appealing to the modders market ) and now most of their most sought-after amps are all PCB with SMT components and even set up to be NON-USER-SERVICEABLE. I'm not demonizing, I'm telling the truth. If the majority of PCB constructed amps were truly better than any other format, I would say so. I said that older Marshall amps that used PCBs are what I feel are the best of the bunch of commonly available amps. You can't get a JCM-800 in PTP or otherwise unless you pay someone other than Marshall to make it, in which case, it is no longer commonly available and is less likely to be on your workbench. I discount such amps from consideration because guess what, those amps are rare comparatively, don't often come across workbenches, and are subject to the same failures as any other well-made amp is. Time is usually the cause of problems for most old amps. So when you have countless thousands of Marshall's from 1981 and through to today working just fine with an occasional bad egg, you can see why I say they are good.
The best-made amps in the world? Mine if you ask me, but you and hundreds of others on this forum may not agree : ) My amps are made to the best and most agreed upon safety standards, I use only the best parts and components that you can get, I over-engineer the amp to not only last FOREVER, but to only fail because of abuse or timely expected failure of the parts. My cable runs are as short and practical as possible, and my amps are all tested through a grueling process of FULL output over several DAYS in order to be sure that there is no infant mortality. My amps are all tuned individually one by one to be the best that amp can be, so no two amps have exactly the same value parts, and no two amps will sound the same either. The amp you get will sound like the amp YOU get. Do you care about all that? Probably not, and there are a million others that won't either, that is why only those who want my amps buy them. I don't sell it for being more than it is. And I sure as heck don't want anyone who doesn't actually want the amp to buy it. I don't make them to be a trial amp, I make them to be a lifetime amp. I spent 20 years getting to the point where I can offer such a product. I WILL NOT sell out to BAD, or cop to some distribution deal. If you want my amp, you will find me, or should I say my amp will find you.
In regards to Bogner and his exact history, I can only say that I know he HAD Turret board amps earlier in his career, and he also had some that had copper clad, turret boards that had the copper etched away to reveal a circuit board like appearance. I.E a more " homemade " version of a printed circuit board. My point is that he DID NOT build his amps initially with printed circuit boards as you find in Fender and Marshall amps. No more, no less. As to who makes his mini-series? Who knows, who cares, if it ain't BAD, then it ain't any better, to be honest.
Again, you heard me incorrectly about PCB vs any other build format, They are ALL good and ALL can be GREAT, but turret board construction in my experience is the best all-around. PCB construction is only better when all the best technologies and practices are utilized. Unfortunately, most amps are not actually utilizing the best of what PCB technology has to offer. Not in Two Rocks, not in Fuchs, not in Bogner, very few to none of them. Do you yourself know how to design a truly better PCB than can be done with Turret boards or PTP? There is a lot that goes into it, and you still end up with the downsides of PCB technology in the end. Limited service life. The only eternal service life available is for PTP builds. If any one part goes bad, simply replace it. If the PCB goes tits up, you replace it and everything on it. Can a PCB be better, sure, but only if the time, money, and energy was spent making it so.
Everyone is copying everyone, who all copied the RCA manual. So you can thank RCA for most of what we use today. My work is nothing to call home about and protest as being 100% unique. My stuff is just different than what any other is offering. That is all each builder is trying to do. Just make something that is different from the others. Dr. Z is FAR from novel in any of his designs. Most all of his stuff is a homage to some other tried and true amp from yesteryear. Whether any amp is made from PCB, PTP, or turret board construction, MOST are made to meet a budgetary goal. Why is PCB technology only offered in affordable amps? Because it was cheaper to make and utilize. VHT used to make their amps with eyelet boards ( appealing to the modders market ) and now most of their most sought-after amps are all PCB with SMT components and even set up to be NON-USER-SERVICEABLE. I'm not demonizing, I'm telling the truth. If the majority of PCB constructed amps were truly better than any other format, I would say so. I said that older Marshall amps that used PCBs are what I feel are the best of the bunch of commonly available amps. You can't get a JCM-800 in PTP or otherwise unless you pay someone other than Marshall to make it, in which case, it is no longer commonly available and is less likely to be on your workbench. I discount such amps from consideration because guess what, those amps are rare comparatively, don't often come across workbenches, and are subject to the same failures as any other well-made amp is. Time is usually the cause of problems for most old amps. So when you have countless thousands of Marshall's from 1981 and through to today working just fine with an occasional bad egg, you can see why I say they are good.
Bogner,
I do not currently have a " metal " or high gain amp offering. I was working on a DOOM style amplifier ( think Matamp, Orange and Sunn rolled into one ), but I have not yet been able to quite make it do what I wanted, and put it on hold for a while. I wanted it to be something that could go from light crunch to sounding like Black Sabbath meets Electric Wizard. It could do the latter, but could not do anything very well that was less distorted than that ( at least to me ). I did not want it to be a channel switching amp, it was intended to be a one trick pony, and it essentially is, except that its sweet spot was too small. It was either a wall of DOOOOOOOM, or just meh.
In my older age, I find myself tending toward lower gain, clean, pedal platform amps and have dedicated most of my energy and offerings in that realm. I currently offer an 18-watt clean-to-mean ( blasting the doors off for mean ) single-channel and a 5-watt EF86 ala Vox AC4 ish amp. A third amp is in the works that focuses more on preamp distortion as opposed to power amp distortion. Like other builders, I have my quirks too. I have found that FX loops and channel switching does in fact suck tone from an amp's circuit. The hardest part of making an amp with those features is being original and making it sound as good as if it didn't have those features. Since my amps are built 100% by hand, I tend towards simplicity and focus on the tone and feel of the amp over things that can be taken care of by other forms of technology. It also keeps the price down. I charge perhaps a little on the high side, not because of greed, but because the amp is not made in a day; I spend weeks to make it one of a kind. From the amp circuit to the cabinet woodwork, it is YOUR amp when I am done.
I do not currently have a " metal " or high gain amp offering. I was working on a DOOM style amplifier ( think Matamp, Orange and Sunn rolled into one ), but I have not yet been able to quite make it do what I wanted, and put it on hold for a while. I wanted it to be something that could go from light crunch to sounding like Black Sabbath meets Electric Wizard. It could do the latter, but could not do anything very well that was less distorted than that ( at least to me ). I did not want it to be a channel switching amp, it was intended to be a one trick pony, and it essentially is, except that its sweet spot was too small. It was either a wall of DOOOOOOOM, or just meh.
In my older age, I find myself tending toward lower gain, clean, pedal platform amps and have dedicated most of my energy and offerings in that realm. I currently offer an 18-watt clean-to-mean ( blasting the doors off for mean ) single-channel and a 5-watt EF86 ala Vox AC4 ish amp. A third amp is in the works that focuses more on preamp distortion as opposed to power amp distortion. Like other builders, I have my quirks too. I have found that FX loops and channel switching does in fact suck tone from an amp's circuit. The hardest part of making an amp with those features is being original and making it sound as good as if it didn't have those features. Since my amps are built 100% by hand, I tend towards simplicity and focus on the tone and feel of the amp over things that can be taken care of by other forms of technology. It also keeps the price down. I charge perhaps a little on the high side, not because of greed, but because the amp is not made in a day; I spend weeks to make it one of a kind. From the amp circuit to the cabinet woodwork, it is YOUR amp when I am done.
Yes, all tube and all power stage distortion. It only has one gain stage going straight to the PI. From there it slaps the crap out of the EL84's getting this creamy, chewy, mean sounding distortion. It does rock really well, add your boost/grit pedal du-jour and you can get some pretty screaming leads. One of these days I will get off my not so lazy butt and take some time to record the thing instead of posting in the forums 
The amp was meant more to be a clean pedal platform stage amp, more so than a rock machine. By the time you get any real distortion out of it, you don't want to be near the thing anymore. I would say it can do clean enough for a rock band with a medium weight drummer, if you are a well-supported band ( have a PA and mic everything ) you can keep it in truly clean territory loud enough for it to be in the mix, but not over the top. If you try and use it for its distorted sounds, you won't be allowed back into the venue. It works extremely well with a load box to tame it down and use IR's for the mic'd sound. It was an evolution amp for me. Initially I designed it to be an 18-Watt Marshall TMB homage, but I eventually landed on what would be most closely related to a Lite IIB schematic. I have my own twists and tricks which make it unique and do a thing other amps don't. It excels at the cleanest clean though. It is whisper quiet and if you are a moody, dynamic player, it does that in STRIDES. It can do some country twang if you want and it will do some mild crunch too, but it does this thing when all the knobs are dimed that is just really neat!!!
The AC-4-inspired design is similar in the concept, but meant to be something you can dime in your home and not disturb the neighbors. It does clean, and it will get to crunchy, but really requires a boost/grit pedal to take it into real distortion territory. I am debating a second version that uses an EF86 like the original, but that just seems too close to copying. The extra gain from the EF86 would help the amp get into its own level of growl and grit to not need boost pedals.
The amp was meant more to be a clean pedal platform stage amp, more so than a rock machine. By the time you get any real distortion out of it, you don't want to be near the thing anymore. I would say it can do clean enough for a rock band with a medium weight drummer, if you are a well-supported band ( have a PA and mic everything ) you can keep it in truly clean territory loud enough for it to be in the mix, but not over the top. If you try and use it for its distorted sounds, you won't be allowed back into the venue. It works extremely well with a load box to tame it down and use IR's for the mic'd sound. It was an evolution amp for me. Initially I designed it to be an 18-Watt Marshall TMB homage, but I eventually landed on what would be most closely related to a Lite IIB schematic. I have my own twists and tricks which make it unique and do a thing other amps don't. It excels at the cleanest clean though. It is whisper quiet and if you are a moody, dynamic player, it does that in STRIDES. It can do some country twang if you want and it will do some mild crunch too, but it does this thing when all the knobs are dimed that is just really neat!!! The AC-4-inspired design is similar in the concept, but meant to be something you can dime in your home and not disturb the neighbors. It does clean, and it will get to crunchy, but really requires a boost/grit pedal to take it into real distortion territory. I am debating a second version that uses an EF86 like the original, but that just seems too close to copying. The extra gain from the EF86 would help the amp get into its own level of growl and grit to not need boost pedals.
