250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

[WGTP]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

Somewhere there is a graph of the affect that the volume pot has on the Q or resonance of the the pickup. The Q is much higher with a 1meg pot than a 250k pot, making the pup brighter since the Q is usually between 4khz and 7khz for most Duncan Humbuckers. Higher Q's also "ring" or resonate more than lower Q's. Using a larger Volume pot with the treble turned to 7 probably doesn't produce quit the same affect. The EQ may be slightly different in terms of the roll off of the highs with a different slope produced, plus the resonance may not be the same even if the EQ is.

If you'll notice the 3 Custom pups, the Ceramic Q is at 6khz, the A5 is at 5.4khz and the CC is at 5.2khz. So magnets change the frequency and probably the Q value.

Do you remember your algerbra III??? And you thought you would never need that stuff.

Having said that, I prefer the 500k/Treble on 5 method because of the flexiblity. You can sort of get 3 different pickup tones. Volume down treble up for a bright sound, Volume up treble down for a "Fat" tone and both up for balls to the wall...

You may want a different EQ for your wound strings than for your plain strings, or for low on the neck and high on the neck or for soft parts and loud parts or for Rolling Stones or Rage or when your strings are new or old or the room is bright or dark or your on the left side of the stage or the right or for your flanger or your phasor... Having extra gain and treble allows for a variety of adjustment for a variety of situations.

 

[The Usual]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

I can never get my head around this. The last graph I saw posted here and explained, left me with the impression that increased value of the volume pot increased the amplitude of the peak of the pickup. So it won't get any brigther, just louder in it's peak. In other words, the peak wont change from 4K to 7K, if the peak is at 4K. It will just be louder in the 4K peak. That is not adding brightness to a pickup.
If the pickup is already bright due to it's peak, I supposed that could be percieved as adding brightness, but it really isn't adding brightness.

More often than not, people with a bright pickup aren't the ones being advised to run higher pots. It's people with dark pickups that are being given this advice, and in their case, isn't it just plain wrong?

And the question still begs for those who like big pots and turning down, why not 1 megs on everything. I tried this, and didn't like it all, but I am wondering if others can make it work.

 

[WGTP]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

If I understand correctly, increasing the Q value at 4k would be "similar" to raising the 4k slider on a graphic EQ. Wouldn't increasing the amplitude of the peak that is at 4k (the treble region on guitars) make it brighter?

 

[The Usual]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

But isn't the peak, the peak. So if the peak is 4K, it is already the most dominant part of the EQ, or sound. Amplifying it just makes it more and more dominant, right? So if it was bright to begin with, it will be brighter. If it wasn't, it won't? I am still just asking for the record, not disagreeing.

 

[blueman335]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

Do you remember your algerbra III??? And you thought you would never need that stuff.

Mercifully, I have completely forgotten all of my algebra, geometry, calculus, and all those other forms of torture inflicted on innocent teenagers. And I've managed to lead a full life in spite of it.

For bridge PU's, I only want a full, rich tone, with some bite & pick noise. For tonal variety, I like push-pulls for coil swap, coil cut, phase, and parallel. But in series, a HB should be full & rich, and pack a punch.

 

[jeremy]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

the peak wont change from 4K to 7K, if the peak is at 4K. It will just be louder in the 4K peak.

the peak wont change but by having more 4k the sound will be brighter

i dont like 1 meg pots usually cause i dont need that extra range. by using two 500k contols i can usually dial in the amount of high end that i need. using 1 meg controls gives me extra range that i dont need or use so i have to keep dialed out. similar to what blueman does with limiting the high end with 250k controls except i like more high end than that.

 

[blueman335]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

similar to what blueman does with limiting the high end with 250k controls except i like more high end than that.

Maybe it's my ears; I could have a sensitivity to treble.

 

[jeremy]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

im sure its more than that too. your guitars, your amps, your touch, your (skinny) strings along with what you like to hear. find what works best for you and run with it.

 

[WGTP]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

It's been 35 years since I did much algebra, so I hope some one else will explain the resonance peak or Quality Factor thing better. I have seen where some engineering types claim the value and frequncy of the Q of a pup is the primary determinant of the tone. The various mods we do change those parameters. Changing Magnets, adding "air", degaussing, cutting off the pole pieces (removing metal mass lowers the inductance, not sure about the capacitance IIRC)(there is also some transconductance in there going on and that eddy current thing too) mixing coils, all have an impact that is probably measurable. Forgot to mention that turning the volume up or down may also vary the Q. Dampaning is another factor/variable that enters in and the amount of resistance between the pickup and ground may also have an effect.

For years I did the max the pots deal. It was only after I started building my own distortions and could dial in the treble and gain, that I started using the treble knob.

Like anything else, you could use several of each kind.

 

[MikeS]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

+1. Why add the treble with 500K's on the bridge and then take it away by rolling down the tone pot? I don't need all the treble. To me that means that I haven't got the PU's EQ'd right, & have more tweaking to do in magnets or pots. I tweak until the neck & bridge are at their best on the same amp setting. I do my work up front, and then at a gig I'm not fooling around with getting the PU's balanced, on top of everything else going on.

The other X factor is control layout. For those that use a master tone it's far wiser to be able to dial down excess treble than it is to turn the tone knob beyond 10. When dialing in amps I like to find a tone I like that works with all my guitars, and then dial in the guitars to best suit the amp. The last thing I want to do is dial in my amp for my brightest guitar and have that be too dark for the darker guitars. It's easier, for me at least, to bring down the treble at the guitar. I don't see a tone pot on 7 as a waste of sweep at all. It's usable treble that I might not need or want at that moment.

This is an interesting discussion because it really sheds light on how a lot of us go about dialing in our tones. None of my counterpoints are meant to infer there's a better way or that anyone's methods are flawed. It's just interesting to see how differently we approach setting up our guitars and dialing in our tone.

 

[blueman335]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

For those that use a master tone it's far wiser to be able to dial down excess treble than it is to turn the tone knob beyond 10. When dialing in amps I like to find a tone I like that works with all my guitars, and then dial in the guitars to best suit the amp...It's easier, for me at least, to bring down the treble at the guitar.

The few guitars I have with master tone pots, I converted to being a tone pot for the bridge only, so that I could use two 250K's. I don't see master tone pots as having any worth at all, as they also dial down the treble on the neck PU, which I've never needed to do. Bringing down the treble at the guitar with a master tone messes up the neck EQ.

If you get the PU's EQ'd in relation to each other, you're done, and there's no further need to regularly adjust the tone pots. To me that's the best way to do it.

 

[The Usual]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

I'd love to hear a clip of an A/B of a 250K maxed pot and a 500K maxed pot. To hear this "brigther" you all speak of. Exact same settings of course. I know I always seem to be a pain in the ass on threads like this, but when I do pot swaps, I just don't hear it. I hear a louder peak, but I do not hear brighter. Especially in the bridge position.
Anyone have clips like this?

 

[jeremy]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

The few guitars I have with master tone pots, I converted to being a tone pot for the bridge only, so that I could use two 250K's. I don't see master tone pots as having any worth at all, as they also dial down the treble on the neck PU, which I've never needed to do. Bringing down the treble at the guitar with a master tone messes up the neck EQ.

If you get the PU's EQ'd in relation to each other, you're done, and there's no further need to regularly adjust the tone pots. To me that's the best way to do it.

on one of my main 'strats' i have a master volume and one tone that covers both the neck and bridge pups with no tone on the middle, 250k controls. sometimes i like rolling back the tone on the neck pup. i tend not to use pedals much so i get everything i need from the guitar. having a little extra control is nice in those situations

 

[WGTP]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

Since most of the higher harmonics are generated by the pick attack and they die off quickly, the pot size is mostly going to effect the initial tone. There may not be that much difference in the sustaining tone. A larger pot should produce a more porminant pick attack.

I guess it would also have more affect the higher the notes you are playing and the least on the low E. Fundamental is 80hz, 2nd harmonic is at 160hz, 3rd at 240hz, 4th at 320hz, 5th at 400hz and so forth. The high E on the 12th fret starts at 640hz and goes from there...

 

[papersoul]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

Interesting on the shared tone and volume controls.

I have an SG special with shared tone controls. I have a 500k volume for the neck, 300k bridge and I believe the shared tone is 300k. This is a 1989 stock SG Special with those Bill Lawrence pickups. Maybe I'll try a 500k tone in the bridge or do what Blue did, and convert to a bridge only tone - I guess I could figure that out.

My PRS has a shared volume and tone! 450Ks.
Not sure it is worth re-configuring this.

 

[MikeS]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

If you get the PU's EQ'd in relation to each other, you're done, and there's no further need to regularly adjust the tone pots. To me that's the best way to do it.

No need to adjust... unless of course you're a player who regularly uses the tone controls to change the guitar's tone. Some players use tone pots to their potential, while others might seem better off not messing with a pot at all and simply wiring a permanent resister and capacitor into the circuit. As for me, I find that I do occasionally roll back the neck tone. I'm not a "set and forget" player.

 

[blueman335]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

Maybe I'll try a 500k tone in the bridge or do what Blue did, and convert to a bridge only tone - I guess I could figure that out.

I use the normal Gibson 4 pot diagram, with the bridge PU having a volume & tone, and them the neck with only the volume pot, leaving out the tone pot. The toggle is done the same as the diagram. Very easy.

 

[chase]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

+1. Why add the treble with 500K's on the bridge and then take it away by rolling down the tone pot? I don't need all the treble. To me that means that I haven't got the PU's EQ'd right, & have more tweaking to do in magnets or pots. I tweak until the neck & bridge are at their best on the same amp setting. I do my work up front, and then at a gig I'm not fooling around with getting the PU's balanced, on top of everything else going on.

A 500K tone pot doesn't "add treble", it just doesn't take as much away as a 250K pot.

If you never want or need more treble than 250K gives you, then you don't need 500K pots. It sounds like you have a specific sound you're trying to lock in; for other people there's no such thing as "EQ'd right" and the purpose of the tone pot is to give them a useful range of variation for different situations/tones, not for balancing pickups. Different strums for different chums...

 

[chase]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

I can never get my head around this. The last graph I saw posted here and explained, left me with the impression that increased value of the volume pot increased the amplitude of the peak of the pickup. So it won't get any brigther, just louder in it's peak. In other words, the peak wont change from 4K to 7K, if the peak is at 4K. It will just be louder in the 4K peak. That is not adding brightness to a pickup.
If the pickup is already bright due to it's peak, I supposed that could be percieved as adding brightness, but it really isn't adding brightness.

More often than not, people with a bright pickup aren't the ones being advised to run higher pots. It's people with dark pickups that are being given this advice, and in their case, isn't it just plain wrong?

And the question still begs for those who like big pots and turning down, why not 1 megs on everything. I tried this, and didn't like it all, but I am wondering if others can make it work.

"Adding brightness" doesn't necessarily mean "adding higher frequencies", it can also mean "making the high frequencies louder." 4K is still well into the treble range on a guitar or amp, so a louder 4K peak will indeed sound brighter. So no, it's not at all wrong to suggest higher pot values if someone says their pickup is too dark: a dark pickup with a 4K peak will sound brighter if that 4K peak is not as attenuated as it is with a 250K pot.

That doesn't mean more is always better; if most of the interesting range of a pot is in the 250-500K range, then a 1 meg pot may well be overkill. The circuits in our guitars and amps are far from "transparent" and heavily filter the raw sound of the guitar. It's just a question of taste as to how much filtering we want.

 

[hanumanlangur]

Re: 250 k tone pot or 500k tone pot rolled back to 7

I tend to use 250k or 300k volume pots with logarithmic tapers (since they deal with volume) and 500k pots with linear tapers for tone controls (no reason to use logarithmic). That way I get a slightly smoother, and more balanced sound with the volume pot (no bright spike), and can adjust the tone control to fine tune things. That's just my approach.