3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

[gvis]

Not happy with my recent 2001 Nitefly HSS swamp ashes changes, but making progress. Invader bridge was a big help, but it's bass and mid heavy, especially with 250k volume and tone pots. Hot rails in middle and neck were an improvement, but they're just too dull and lifeless, despite that I do like a darker sound.

So, because I enjoy unconventional guitars and like to be a little different (strats and LP's have never done it for me; nothing against them, just not my thing), and because this guitar is the most playable of any I've ever played, I'm considering making the nitefly into a 3 humbucker beast, with invader bridge and neck and full shred middle.

It looks as easy as just expanding the sing coil slots, which for the middle actually positions it very close to the bridge pup and away from where I strum. And there's plenty of room beneath the pickguard (nitefly, not a regular parker). I'm considering a stacked volume/tone pot at 500k each and .022 cap, as a starting point.

I play heavier music and prefer humbuckers over single coils, but I would like the coil splitting options like I have on my reverend rocco, so, for complete tonal possibilities and control to balance the pups, I'm thinking of routing each humbucker through a 3 way mini toggle for series/parallel/split and then into a low/high dual tone control (like the link below), which should allow me to remove some of the invader bass and full shred highs, as well as give a lot of tonal options.

I never use the piezo pickups and would use it's open hole for one of the low/high controls.

Thoughts? Am I nuts? :biglaugh:

http://http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/PMT-DMTG/Dual-Mode-High-Low-Pass-Tone-Control-For-Guitar.html

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Anyone? C'mon, it ain't that crazy...lol.

 

[Khriss Bliss]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

big points for out there. iron maidens manager had to call patrick mcgowan to get permission to use the tv show The Prisoner on # ofBeast. he calls him w the idea. mcgowan thinks abt it....
(long silence, then he sez "....DO IT!!"

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Excellent reply Kriss Bliss! Consider it done:

Lol...sorry, couldn't resist the dramatic bait and switch. Just finished it, and it's amazing. Finally after 10 years of considering selling this thing but being unable to because of how well it plays, I'm finally closer to a sound I like. Got to tweak some things tonight to get the treble in check, but overall I'm very happy with the looks and sounds.

Summary of impressions so far:

1. 500k pots really opened up the bridge invader. Bass still too much, but midrange is no longer muddy. Parallel great too.
2. Coil split invaders sound great and don't lose much volume, while the coil split full shred, while fine split, lost more volume.
3. Full shred split with either invader split is great.
4. Full shred in middle has none of the middle position issues I was worried about.
5. Invader neck treble is even more pronounced than the full shred. While the dual mode tone control helps, the 500k volume and tone combo is a little ice picky, for both invader and full sgred. The SD site did say the neck has more treble, but I figured it was to balance for being in the neck position. Tonight I'm going to try a stacked 500k volume and 250k tone, so at least my tone range starts in a lower position relative to where it is now. If that doesn't work I"ll try switching to 250k volume with 500k tone. If that doens't work I'll try an invader neck in the neck (yes, anything to keep in invader in there..lol). I want to avoid going back to 250k on both because the bridge invader gets too thick.
6. The combination of sounds and tones is amazing.

Cheers. :14:

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Here's a link to photos in case the copied ones don't work (my work machine is blocking them, so I can't see the results).

http://s1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb458/gvis1/

 

[Khriss Bliss]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

lotta good science, lotta great irreverence. this is vaguely reminiscent of Eddie Van Halen attacking his antique Gibson 335. maybe if you cover the right Kinks song, itll be worth one million someday. Def oneofakind. i monitor alot of weirdo collectors like S howe, fripp/belew, SteveStevens (the guy who put toy gun parts in his gtr:see Rebel Yell solo)., Elliott Easton etc.just to see how the implement their ideas.It takes vision. if yr Parker plays as special as u say it does, i commend u for having the guts to gut it- like the piezos , etc. - its good you have the technical patience, cuz this is not a project for mild curiosity. When i first read what u were doin- ...wtf..., but as i try to picture it, i bet it will turn heads...

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

your way out in left field with that tonequest, but hey, they hit home runs there too.(and lots of foul balls). Sounds like you got a good grip on the bat and know what your swingin for though.

 

[Maynardo]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Not my choice of pickups, BUT that's got to be the only three humbucker ax I've seen that looks cool, and also looks like you actually have some room to pick hard in there. So congrats man, All of my envy goes to you

 

[walkdmc]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

very unique. i think you have space for a single coil between the neck and middle pups...

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

very unique. i think you have space for a single coil between the neck and middle pups...

The Steve Morse Parker Fly...

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Somehow I missed these later posts...my bad..sorry for the no replies! The thread came up while I was searching for threads on swmap thing speakers...lol.

I think you're all giving me way too much credit on knowing what I'm after. I'm actually a complete journeyman trying to figure out what I want and going in all directions to get there (got a lot of stuff to sell...lol). One day I think wow, this sounds great, but the next I ask myself wtf. The only thing I was sure of is that I wanted a humbucker in the middle and would find a way to make it sound good, despite some threads saying it's not ideal; stubborn I guess. I just picked the wrong one with the full shred, because it's too lifeless for me and outmatched by the invaders.

An alt 8 goes into the middle this Sunday, as well as a .047 tone cap, to replace the .022 that wasn't reducing treble far enough with my 500k volume pot and 250k tone pot. Hopefully these will be the last changes....famous last words.

And having those combo base/treble controls on each humbuckrer gives me amazing tonal options. Because they appear to be like audio pots, with a flick I can easily reduce bass when I want an edgier, not so thick metal sound, given how much bass the invaders have. But I do also use a 7 band EQ to scope out specific bass freq's from my early issue jeckyl/hyde's hyde side, which for some reaosn is a very bass heavy pedal.

And now walkdmc's got me thinking of adding my unsused hot rail in that open space..lol.

 

[blueman335]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Middle HB's hit the string nodes wrong, and sound nothing like they would if they were in the bridge or neck slots. They're usually a big disappointment, I know, I've added them to a few guitars. You end up adding a PU you'll rarely, if ever use, and then have a hard time picking because there's very little space left for that. Sounds good on paper, but doesn't work out that way. If you want a middle PU, add a P-90 or Fender single coil.

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

That may be true on the nodes. Guess I'll see if it affects me negatively with the alt 8. While I didn't first try the full shred in the bridge before placing it in the middle (to compare), what I ended up with was pretty close to the reviews here, so I think it was more my choice of pup than location.

And I've placed the middle pup right up against the bridge pup, so from the start I'd hoped such nodal issues would be less, and there's no change in picking setup because the top coil is in the same spot as the single coil was, so no bumping it.

If the nodal issues are just changes in tone and freq response as you slide closer to the neck, and the bridge pup wasn't designed for that, who cares if the result works and is different than the expectation in the burdge. I'm guessing base may thicken up a bit (pup specific tone pot with base cut solves that) and treble may be reduced (full shred & alt 8 have mnore treble than bridge invader, & the full shred treble balanced perfectly and was less than SD's tone description, maybe due to the location as well).

I added these pup specific tone pots and series/parallel/split toggles to help get around any issues with this bizarre setup, along with adding tonal options.

But then I could be way and fail...wouldn't be the first time...lol. One thing I'll never be accused of is not trying (music stuff, cars, my house, etc...wife deserves a medal for putting up with me).

 

[blueman335]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

If the nodal issues are just changes in tone and freq response as you slide closer to the neck, and the bridge pup wasn't designed for that, who cares if the result works and is different than the expectation in the burdge. I'm guessing base may thicken up a bit (pup specific tone pot with base cut solves that) and treble may be reduced

The tone is weaker and thinner on a middle HB. You'd think it would be more bassy and powerful like the neck slot, but it's just not a good location node-wise for a HB. Not as much string vibration and energy. Tone is mediocre to lousy. Ever wonder why everyone copied HSH and HSS right off the bat, and over the last 50 years, virtually NO ONE has copied the Gibson/Epiphone HHH concept? Hmmm...

Look at lab pictures guitar strings vibrating; there's places where there's a lot of movement, and places where's there's almost none (nodes).

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Well, I did say I'm guessing..lol. Ok, intrigued, I found these two links. One is a more scientifuc study, and some of it is above me, and the other is from ed romain's site and is in plain english for dummies like me.

I see now what you're getting at, thanks! What's interesting is ed's claim that 98% of all Gibsons and all 22 fret PRS models have less than ideal node positions (I didn't see exactly what nodal issues he's claiming). If this is true, and because half the word plays Gibsons, then it must not be a major issue. One site not linked here actually said pup height is more important.

And where I placed mine didn't result in any major lost frequencies (that I could tell) or drop in output; it's output just wasn't balanced compared to the invaders and the lack of mids, and the high articulation (normal shred characteristics), just didn't appeal to me. Also, the top coil of my middle hum pup is still in the same position as the single coil it replaces, and these are high output pups whose single coils should have similar output to a single coil, at least split; not sure in series.

But I'm glad I learned something new. I'll see Sunday how this all works out and report back. Hopefully it comes out ok. Note that I never went into this expecting it to sound exactly like the bridge, neck, or middle positions.

http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/scalelength.htm

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/

 

[zakk_speed]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

There was a thread a while back on neck humbuckers and nodal positions, and I think somone made the good point that the nodal positions change as you fret each note.

The most interesting application of 3 pickups I've seen recently is the fret king elan super 50 which has a p90 in between two buckers

..or theres always this approach

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Good point, and awesome 4 bucker guitar, though I feel one upped.

I just went back over ed romains site and see at the bottom that he says strats also have misplaced pups...lol...and that the public has just grown used to the resulting sound. I recall threads asking why start single bridges are slanted, and many argued just for marketing, and then this thread got me thinking maybe for nodal reasons....but now I guess it was just a marketing gimmick. Who knows.

I think in the end it's just whether you like it or not. Based on all of this, just because most high volume companies don't sell a humbucker in the middle doesn't mean it's wrong. So many custom shops offer plenty of middle position humbucker models. It could just be a cost issue for larger companies. More of just about everything to handle one extra pup.

 

[blueman335]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

just because most high volume companies don't sell a humbucker in the middle doesn't mean it's wrong...It could just be a cost issue for larger companies.

No, it's not because it's 'wrong' to have a middle HB, it's because it is a design concept that didn't wok out when put into use (like the Vari-tone switch, which also looked good on paper). People copy what works. They avoided HHH and Vari-tones like the plague.

As fas as cost, the retail price of guitars, at any price point, would cover the small additional cost of a third HB. Companies don't hesitate to do the routing and wiring for HSH and HSH guitars. It's not a cost issue, it's tone quality, and almost universally, players don't like the sound of middle HB's. They sell because they look nice.

I admire your persistence, but it doesn't change the facts. Hey, I routed a few guitars myself for HHH, and now wish I hadn't. There are no advantages, only downsides. You get more useable options from an HH guitar with the 4 push-pull Jimmy Page system.

 

[gvis]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Just finished installing the alt 8 and playing it. It's certainly an improvement over the full shred, and the cleans sound great, but, like the full shred (and the middle hot rail before it), I can't get an acceptable hard over drive or high gain sound; the attack is not clear and the harmonics are flat. No matter what over drives I tried, I couldn't even get decent pinch harmonics, etc, out of solos. I don't think it's the pup; I just don't think this middle position works for the heavier stuff.

But I'm very happy with the alt 8 clean sound when using parallel, both with the pup alone or mixed with either the neck invader, which also sounds best parallel (the attack in series is just plain horrible), or the bridge invader, which sounds great series or parallel, as long it's over drive or high gain.

It has much more character than the full shred, it's output and frequencies balance well with the invaders, and I'm getting enough of the hard stuff out of the invaders, so I think I'm done for now, and it's certainly much better than the stock HSS setup I had.

Of course tomorrow I'll have a completely different opinion...because one day something will sound great to me and then the next...it sounds like pooh...lol...and then a week later it's good again...anyone else like that?

 

[Masta' C]

Re: 3 Humbucker Parker Nitefly - Am I Insane?

Adjust the pickup height...it does more to help pull out those pinch harmonics than you might expect, especially with a powerful A8 on board!

If you adjust the height where it starts to work better and notice a couple strings need a boost, adjust just that side of the pickup closer or take advantage of the adjustable pole pieces...that's what they're there for!