3-Way Wiring like MSM1 Ibanez?

[Artie]

I'm saying it isn't out-of-phase, after listening to the video. When he has the 3-way in the middle, it's still a strong, full-bodied sound. That isn't OOP. IMHO.

Here's the diagram, but it was made for Duncan colors. It will take me a little time to translate it to DMZ colors.

P.S. Also, a standard Fender 3-way. An Ibby 3-way is different.

 

[Artie]

Well shoot. To make matters worse, I bet you have a Switchcraft style toggle. More "chewing" to come.

 

[Artie]

If you want them out of phase, the neck pickup is rotated 180, and of course you have to modify the wiring so the other coil is selected, because the physical rotation changes which one is on the inside.

Yes, this explains it. because the coils of a humbucker are opposite wind and polarity, this means that the inner two coils when combined will be hum cancelling and in phase. If you rotate one of the pickup, now the two inner coils are out of phase.

On the first part, rotating a pickup, physically in its mount, has nothing to do with its phase or polarity. It doesn't even make the wiring easier. It's purely cosmetic. If a coil is wound clockwise, rotating it still makes it clockwise. The polarity of the magnet is only relative to that individual pickup. Not any other in the guitar.

On the second part, both coils of a humbucker are wound the same direction. They are then connected together reverse-polarity. Aka: start-to-start or finish-to-finish. That means that the signal picked up out of the air cancels, or humbucking. To get the signal from the strings coherent, (same polarity), they need different magnetic polarity. Thus, the magnet lays underneath with the south on one coil, and the north on the other. Voila . . . working humbucker.

Strat pups are done different. The middle pup is in fact reverse wound. (RW) Then they reverse the magnetic pole pieces. (RP) and we get humbucking when the middle is used with the bridge or neck. Not sure why they did it that way. Leo's thinking compared to Seth's, I guess.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

On the first part, rotating a pickup, physically in its mount, has nothing to do with its phase or polarity. It doesn't even make the wiring easier. It's purely cosmetic. If a coil is wound clockwise, rotating it still makes it clockwise. The polarity of the magnet is only relative to that individual pickup. Not any other in the guitar.

On the second part, both coils of a humbucker are wound the same direction. They are then connected together reverse-polarity. Aka: start-to-start or finish-to-finish. That means that the signal picked up out of the air cancels, or humbucking. To get the signal from the strings coherent, (same polarity), they need different magnetic polarity. Thus, the magnet lays underneath with the south on one coil, and the north on the other. Voila . . . working humbucker.

Strat pups are done different. The middle pup is in fact reverse wound. (RW) Then they reverse the magnetic pole pieces. (RP) and we get humbucking when the middle is used with the bridge or neck. Not sure why they did it that way. Leo's thinking compared to Seth's, I guess.

Artie,

Nice job on a lot of good, helpful information above.

You wrote "both coils are wound in the same direction". Are you sure about that? The 1728.com website explainw it as one coil is wound opposite of the other, and its the combination of opposite wind and opposite magnetix polarity btw the two coils of a humbucker that yield hum-canceling. That both elements are needed to get hum-canceling. See pic as an example.

[Edit]: from the perspective of the two Start wires, i guess you could say the two coils are wound in the same directiin. But its not the two start wires that get connected for hum-canceling... its one start and one finish... so looking from that perspecrive, the wind changes direction as signal passes from one coil to the other.

 

[Artie]

I'm sure about it with Duncans. That's what allows us to disassemble two humbuckers, and reassemble them with 2 screws and/or 2 studs and get a new working humbucker.

You can do a humbucker two different ways: reverse wire one coil, and connect them start-to-finish. Or wire them both the same direction, and wire them finish-to-finish. That's just the way they refer to wiring up two coils forward or backward. Like the way you put batteries in a flashlight. Look at this chart:

https://guitarelectronics.com/guitar...e-color-codes/

Notice that almost every pup maker does finish-to-finish. The two coils are wired as "batteries backwards in the flashlight" so that the voltages picked up in the air oppose each other and cancel. Then, they lay in a bar magnet so each coil gets opposite magnetic polarity so that the signal comes back together.

I know it's confusing. Especially since Leo did it different with the Stratocaster singles.

P.S. Did you notice, in that pic you posted, that both coils are wound clockwise? Finish-to-finish.

 

[Artie]

But . . . we digress. We gotta figure out what I kind of 3-way you need to make this work. :dunno:

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I'm sure about it with Duncans. That's what allows us to disassemble two humbuckers, and reassemble them with 2 screws and/or 2 studs and get a new working humbucker.

You can do a humbucker two different ways: reverse wire one coil, and connect them start-to-finish. Or wire them both the same direction, and wire them finish-to-finish. That's just the way they refer to wiring up two coils forward or backward. Like the way you put batteries in a flashlight. Look at this chart:

https://guitarelectronics.com/guitar...e-color-codes/

Notice that almost every pup maker does finish-to-finish. The two coils are wired as "batteries backwards in the flashlight" so that the voltages picked up in the air oppose each other and cancel. Then, they lay in a bar magnet so each coil gets opposite magnetic polarity so that the signal comes back together.

I know it's confusing. Especially since Leo did it different with the Stratocaster singles.

P.S. Did you notice, in that pic you posted, that both coils are wound clockwise? Finish-to-finish.

Artied, thanks. Some good points for me to chew on.

I guess i tend to concentrate on how the coils actually get connected together, which like you said is "two batteries backward". So signal flow wise, there is a reverse in direction leaving one coil and going into the other. But yeah, technically the wind is the same. Thanks for helping me see that better.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

But . . . we digress. We gotta figure out what I kind of 3-way you need to make this work. :dunno:

Maybe i'm going to get yet another suprise today... LOL... but why would that type of switch not be the 4PDT 3 way on-on-on that i identified earlier?

 

[Artie]

It can be done either way. Imagine, from a factory point of view, that you wind the coils in two different directions. Now you gotta keep track of which is which. The "signal in the air" is only relevant to wind direction. The signal we want, is relevant to both wind direction and magnet polarity. That gives a mechanical advantage on manipulating it to do what you want.

And then, if you want to do the "Peter Green" thing, you can always hook up the wires backwards.

 

[Artie]

Maybe i'm going to get yet another suprise today... LOL... but why would that type of switch not be the 4PDT 3 way on-on-on that i identified earlier?

It might very well be. But now, I've lost track of my own mental train in this thread. :flush:

 

[Top-L]

On the first part, rotating a pickup, physically in its mount, has nothing to do with its phase or polarity. It doesn't even make the wiring easier. It's purely cosmetic. If a coil is wound clockwise, rotating it still makes it clockwise. The polarity of the magnet is only relative to that individual pickup. Not any other in the guitar.

On the second part, both coils of a humbucker are wound the same direction. They are then connected together reverse-polarity. Aka: start-to-start or finish-to-finish. That means that the signal picked up out of the air cancels, or humbucking. To get the signal from the strings coherent, (same polarity), they need different magnetic polarity. Thus, the magnet lays underneath with the south on one coil, and the north on the other. Voila . . . working humbucker.

Strat pups are done different. The middle pup is in fact reverse wound. (RW) Then they reverse the magnetic pole pieces. (RP) and we get humbucking when the middle is used with the bridge or neck. Not sure why they did it that way. Leo's thinking compared to Seth's, I guess.

Nope, thats not the case. (First read the article I posted that discusses how humbucker coils are wound.)

Think it through. Both coils of a humbucker are wound in opposite directions. If you flip a pickup 180 degrees, that means that the inner coil is now wound in the opposite direction than it was before.

Thats why the dimarzio diagrams are very specific about which way the humbucker is mounted.

We all learned something today.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

It might very well be. But now, I've lost track of my own mental train in this thread. :flush:

Sorry about that, but if it helps, I took in all your points, so your effort was not in vain.

And, risking that the following helps to try and help get the train chugging again:
1. You believed middle position wasn't actually OoP because of the tone of the audio in the video and because his Neck pup was rotated around. So you suspected Middle Position was simply a hum-canceling, combined split-coil sound.
2. How to get that in Middle Position when the OP has a 3 way control that is a Toggle footprint vs a Blade footprint and he doesn't want tobuse a push-pull, etc. but is open to replacintg his pickup selector switch. I suggested a 4DPT on-on-on. I posted a Dimarzio diagram that uses a 4DPT for this a few replies back.
3. Note that the OP never said what brand of pups he has.

 

[Artie]

I read it. I thought it through. The article is ambiguous at best. Wrong at worst. Take a clock. Rotate it 180 deg's so that 12 is at the bottom, and 6 is at the top. The hands still go the same direction.

Better yet. Buy a cheap humbucker. Take it apart and unwind the coils. They're both wound the same direction.

But think through what you just said. If both coils are wound in opposite directions . . . and you rotate them both 180 deg's . . . they're both still wound the same way. Wrap a string around your finger counter-clockwise, with your fingernail pointing up. Now rotate your finger 180. Isn't the string still wrapped counterclockwise?

If you really want to do work, disassemble two humbuckers. Reassemble the coils with the two stud coils. Be careful with your soldering. Note how killer sounding and quiet your new humbucker is.

I hope I don't sound like a dickhead, but that article is simply wrong.

Artie

 

[Artie]

Jack: That was a joke because it's late. I didn't lose my train. It's just parked in the station.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Jack: That was a joke because it's late. I didn't lose my train. It's just parked in the station.

Haha. Great. Cuz apparently on some days (like today) i for one, completely lose my train. :crazy:

Have a good night. Thanks again Artie.

 

[Artie]

:beerchug:

 

[Top-L]

I read it. I thought it through. The article is ambiguous at best. Wrong at worst. Take a clock. Rotate it 180 deg's so that 12 is at the bottom, and 6 is at the top. The hands still go the same direction.

Better yet. Buy a cheap humbucker. Take it apart and unwind the coils. They're both wound the same direction.

But think through what you just said. If both coils are wound in opposite directions . . . and you rotate them both 180 deg's . . . they're both still wound the same way. Wrap a string around your finger counter-clockwise, with your fingernail pointing up. Now rotate your finger 180. Isn't the string still wrapped counterclockwise?

If you really want to do work, disassemble two humbuckers. Reassemble the coils with the two stud coils. Be careful with your soldering. Note how killer sounding and quiet your new humbucker is.

I hope I don't sound like a ********, but that article is simply wrong.

Artie

Ok...

The neck coil is ccw. The bridge coil is cw.

When you rotate the pickup, now the neck coil is cw and the bridge coil is ccw.

See how they switched?

Maybe you believe that both coils are wound the same direction in humbuckers? But we know that's wrong because a reverse wound SC is needed in the middle to eliminate hum when combined with an adjacent. The coils in a hb are opposite, one is cw and one is ccw.

All the DiMarzio diagrams are very specific on the orientation of the humbuckers...for good reason.

 

[Artie]

Ok...

The neck coil is ccw. The bridge coil is cw.

When you rotate the pickup, now the neck coil is cw and the bridge coil is ccw.

See how they switched?

Maybe you believe that both coils are wound the same direction in humbuckers? But we know that's wrong because a reverse wound SC is needed in the middle to eliminate hum when combined with an adjacent. The coils in a hb are opposite, one is cw and one is ccw.

All the DiMarzio diagrams are very specific on the orientation of the humbuckers...for good reason.

I hope this isn't an argument. I'm simply trying to be informative.

Do a dirt simple experiment. Wind a few turns of string around the end of a pencil CW. Now look at the end of the pencil as you rotate it with your fingers. Note that the winds always remain wound CW. It would be physically impossible for the string to wind the other direction at some point between 0 and 180 deg's. Same with a pup. But lets go a step farther.

I've disassembled one of my Duncan Distortions. Look at how the white lead wires for both coils go down, and to the right, in a CW wind. Both coils are definitely wound clockwise. Duncan pups are internally connected finish-to-finish. DiMarzio pups are too.

Edit: I didn't notice at first that the wire does a u-turn at the end of that lead. Both coils are actually wound CCW. That makes more sense since the winding machine would turn that direction. (Top going, that is.)




Therefore, DiMarzio pickups must, by definition, both be wound the same direction.

As for the middle pup of a Strat, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Seth Lover did it one way. Leo Fender did it another.

But lets also not forget, I've built Duncan hybrids from two different stud coils, and the pup worked perfectly, and remained humbucking. Experimentation and disassembly beats theory every time.

 

[Top-L]

I am 100% in agreement with the article from SeymourDuncan.com Posted again: https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/l...0each%20other.

You don't need to double down. Just think it over and hopefully in time you will come to the same conclusion. Some of the things you posted earlier appeared to contradict the article.

Its not my place to correct you or call you out. I know what I believe and its 100% consistent with information from the Seymour Duncan and Dimarzio websites.

 

[Artie]

Ok man. That's cool. That article is wrong. But I'm going to leave you with one thought: You hold a pickup in your hand, and it's wound CW. You rotate it 180 deg's and now it's CCW. What exactly is it as you pass through 90 deg's? When it's sideways.