50 watt or more?

[Powdered Toast Man]

Re: 50 watt or more?

Let's remind you of the common thing people don't understand about tube amps:

WATTAGE DOES NOT EQUAL VOLUME

A 50w head is just as loud as a 100w head. The difference is CLEAN HEADROOM. The 50w amp will begin to overdrive earlier than the 100w head. I used to have a Fender 75 amp - it was 75 watts with a switch to flip it down to 25w. The volume was nearly identical on either setting, but I noticed immediately now clean the amp got when it was in 75w mode. Ask anyone who has a 100w Twin with the 1/4 power switch.

If you want to alter your volume, you should focus on the speakers. A cab loaded with efficient speakers is going to make a massive difference in volume. Much more so than the power of your head unit.

 

[everdrone]

Re: 50 watt or more?

+1 you will need clean headroom for heavy bass notes tuned to c#, that is why bassists always use more wattage than guitaristz

 

[Petrovsk Mizinski]

Re: 50 watt or more?

I find it embarrassing the headroom issue even needed to be explained that many times, wow, especially after I explained it well early in the thread.
It seems some people don't fully get the rationale behind more modern, non-MV high wattage amps. Everdrone gets it, a few other guys get it.
Some of the other guys in this thread........not so much.

The OP isn't looking for an old Marshall non-MV head or 85 watt Dual Showman Reverb that requires ridiculous volume to be to 'work' to 'be able to use'.

The reason why I suggested the amp that I did (5150/6505) 120 watts though it may be, is because you only need to put the amp on about 2-3 for it to sound great, live or in a studio, whereas some of the more 'classic' amps don't start to open up until at least about 7.
This way, the amp wont **** itself with a woofy low end caused by excessive power amp distortion, will retain a fairly tight low end and lower mid range, and you wont get excessive speaker breakup that can cause a lot of honky-ness and muddiness.

Throwing a Tube Screamer in front is even better, because the added clipping and compression means you don't have to use too much gain on the amp itself.
I find that about 4.5-5 on a 5150 with fairly high output pickups is all the gain you'll ever need for any kind of hardcore or metal application (so maybe about 5.5-6 if you're rocking lower output pickups), you wont need the rest. Anyone that needs much more gain than that needs to work on their technique.
Which will retain a lot more clarity and articulation, and also the higher end cut, lower mid cut and core mid boost of the TS will make the amp cut in the mix better and sound smoother.

There's a reason why it's seen in the backlines of heavy bands all across the world and in the studios of heavy music producers everywhere, because they just have a mid range character that works incredibly in a mix and can be used at manageable volumes.

 

[Petrovsk Mizinski]

Re: 50 watt or more?

Also for reference,



Not sure if the 'older' guys will dig that though haha. I think they made brilliant music and it's a shame they disbanded.
Kind of like At the Drive In on steroids.

The guitarist Thomas has been known to use an 80 watt head all the way up to a 140 watt Orange head.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: 50 watt or more?

Seriously, why do you think that a 50W amp might not be loud enough for a gig? Amps of that power are overkill for most gigs IMO, unless you are looking for clean tone at moderate volumes.

 

[blueman335]

Re: 50 watt or more?

The difference between a 50 watt and a 100 watt head is only 3db. I have a 35 watt tube head that keeps up with 100 watt marshalls easily because for one they are both almost as loud as each other and secondly, when have you ever played a show when you needed a 100 watt marshall dimed to hear yourself on stage?

+1. Are you playing outdoor festivals? For any local venue you'll be playing, a 50 watt is plenty. You shouldn't ever max it out. If you have a 100 watt on '10' in the average-size bar or club, there probably won't be anyone left in the audience. They don't like to be blasted by a bunch of nitwits and have their ears ringing all week. People like to talk and socialize at these places, and they shouldn't have to scream in the bartender's face to get a drink. I'd be more concerned with tone quality and getting the songs tight, than trying to blow out the windows. :eyecrazy:

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Re: 50 watt or more?

I find it embarrassing the headroom issue even needed to be explained that many times, wow, especially after I explained it well early in the thread.
It seems some people don't fully get the rationale behind more modern, non-MV high wattage amps. Everdrone gets it, a few other guys get it.
Some of the other guys in this thread........not so much.

The OP isn't looking for an old Marshall non-MV head or 85 watt Dual Showman Reverb that requires ridiculous volume to be to 'work' to 'be able to use'.

The reason why I suggested the amp that I did (5150/6505) 120 watts though it may be, is because you only need to put the amp on about 2-3 for it to sound great, live or in a studio, whereas some of the more 'classic' amps don't start to open up until at least about 7.
This way, the amp wont **** itself with a woofy low end caused by excessive power amp distortion, will retain a fairly tight low end and lower mid range, and you wont get excessive speaker breakup that can cause a lot of honky-ness and muddiness.

Throwing a Tube Screamer in front is even better, because the added clipping and compression means you don't have to use too much gain on the amp itself.
I find that about 4.5-5 on a 5150 with fairly high output pickups is all the gain you'll ever need for any kind of hardcore or metal application (so maybe about 5.5-6 if you're rocking lower output pickups), you wont need the rest. Anyone that needs much more gain than that needs to work on their technique.
Which will retain a lot more clarity and articulation, and also the higher end cut, lower mid cut and core mid boost of the TS will make the amp cut in the mix better and sound smoother.

There's a reason why it's seen in the backlines of heavy bands all across the world and in the studios of heavy music producers everywhere, because they just have a mid range character that works incredibly in a mix and can be used at manageable volumes.

Ok, I read your post and you mentioned headroom but didn't explain much of anything. Here's what the OP originally asked:

So, I really want a Vox Night Train, but I feel like that might not be enough power and volume for shows and stuff, it might be loud enough for practicing but I'm just afraid that if I were to play a show I'll be SOL.

Anyone using a 50 watt all tube head that is loud enough for gigs and stuff? I mean, I could always mic it but either way it would be nice to know either I have anything to worry about as far as volume goes.

 

[Petrovsk Mizinski]

Re: 50 watt or more?

Ok, I read your post and you mentioned headroom but didn't explain much of anything. Here's what the OP originally asked:

Lol I get that he asked that, but I just figured it's been established in this thread that even a tube amp 10 watts would probably be 'loud enough' given a good cabinet, since PA and monitoring has evolved since the days of the Beatles.
In today's environment, 'is it loud enough' isn't really the issue though.
He needs an amp that's been known to handle that style of music well and I imagine he doesn't want to break the bank while finding an amp.
That's where my posts fit into this

 

[youngthrasher9]

Re: 50 watt or more?

I've played at half volume on my 20 watt Blackstar with a super loud drummer. 50 watts of all tube is WAY more then you would think. Especially so if you don't scoop the mids.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: 50 watt or more?

For those guys saying you need more wattage for cleans..where exactly are you coming from?
Whats the Fender Deluxe Reverb Bl;ackface..22 watts? MORE that enough causwe you have a bright edged clean mixed with some very organic breakup. OTOH< I need at least 50 watts through a 4x12 using hard edge Marshall distortion, and preferably a 100 watt full stack. The more distorted, the more power you need to push the sound .
Clean, My Super Reverbs 45 watts will rip your head off.

 

[Andrew Lamprecht]

Re: 50 watt or more?

Honestly, I kept up with a loud drummer using my Pro Junior cranked and that was with a 15 watt combo with a 10 inch speaker.

With my current Peavey Delta Blues (2 10" speakers/30 watt amp) I never really get above 4 or 5 with the same guy.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: 50 watt or more?

^ Yeah and a lot depends on style. Obviously you are not playing Mastadon. A Fender Combo can get dang loud and bright, but for blues/classic only and such lighter styles only . Through in a heavy overdrive or fuzz and your 15 watts is no where near suffuccient.
A heavey handed drummer with a big kit and a Bass player with a bass using hot pickups and a powerful amp who is really gettin' it, and you can forget the Pro Jr, casue it'll be so lost you'd need to put an ad on a milk carton .

 

[youngthrasher9]

Re: 50 watt or more?

^ Yeah and a lot depends on style. Obviously you are not playing Mastadon. A Fender Combo can get dang loud and bright, but for blues/classic only and such lighter styles only . Through a heavy overdrive and your 15 watts is no where near suffuccient.
Its like the Deluxe reveb. Greatest Ckassic Blues amp opf all time. Through a haevey hnded drummer with a big kit and a Bass player with a bass using hot pickups and a powerful amp who is really gettin' it, and you can forget the Pro Jr, casue it'll be so lost you'd need to put an ad on a milk carton .

Dude, I was playing with the gain almost dimed.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: 50 watt or more?

Dude, I was playing with the gain almost dimed.

Yeah well, sorry, I don't believe you. Theres no way 20 distorted watts in a 1x12 combo even witgh the most efficient speaker on earth works *especially with a loud drummer in there unless you all are in a 6 x 8 room and you like bees in a jar tone.
You need at least 50 watts and a 4x12 closed back .
Now for classic rock covers ..drummer taking it easy, bass player laid back, no feathers ruffled, sure.

 

[9unslin9er]

Re: 50 watt or more?

Definitely more than enough power.

S#it, I run 20 watt amps with 8"/10" speakers all day in a live setting. SM57 -> a PA is your friend.
Noise gates are also your friend for smaller amps.

Honestly, the only time I actually use 50 or 100 watt combos and heads are for studio recordings when I can isolate.

Get the Night Train. Fantastic amp.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: 50 watt or more?

I guess the Point im making is A super Reverb or eevn Deluxe is perfect for Blues classic /hard rock, where you arent getting into that I guess we could satrt calling it "classic Heavey metal " Thing.
Look at Trucks. Massive tone , and with a 40 watt Super reverb, becasue fo that mix if clean and dirt the Fender has. More than enuf ballz.
The Grail rock amp- the '59 bassman , is distorted, and for me, did NOT have enuf ballz, becasue of the distortion when cranked wuth really no cleans in it.One day I will have two of these '59 Bassman amp reissues, and that should work.
Get into harder edge rock, and Heavey Metal, and 30 watts is barely enough.
Look,. Clapton played an 18 watt Bluesbreaker. They react differently volume wise than a Fender , but still, it had to be because iof the recording and not cause Clapton loved to sit in the mix wiht Ginger Bakers massive heavy handed drum attack and jack Bruces thick Muddy EBO Bass through 8x12's, can we get real?
Anyone advocating their Low cheap Jet Citys for a Metal live band mix, and micing through a PA kills original tone, are either poor clowns, or fools.

 

[chadd]

Re: 50 watt or more?

If you need more than 50 watts, you should be using a PA anyway. A closed back 4x12 does not disperse sound in an efficient pattern for an entire venue. The people directly in front get blasted and anyone to the side loses volume and tone quickly as they get farther from the "beam".

 

[everdrone]

Re: 50 watt or more?

lol at people mentioning fender pro junior and 15-20 watt amps FOR MASTODON! :banana: make sure to clarify which nighttrain you are recommending, the 15 watter or 50 watter..

Yes yes you will be able to achieve high volume levels with a fender pro junior trying to play heavy metal in ur bandz :eyecrazy: :dot:

I dig my thunderverb cause it comes with a built in attenuator so I get all the defined low end at acceptable volumes, yet I can also really work the tubes so that I get great distortion.

mastodon used em at their show this year too!

 

[schecterplayer]

Re: 50 watt or more?

50 watts should be easily enough. For tight, modern chunky sounds you really want a big cab and some nice cutting speakers (vintage 30s or the like) the wattage really doesn't matter so much past 50 watts since at volumes that the sound guy will actually tolerate you won't be getting much power tube breakup out of either the 50 or the 100.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: 50 watt or more?

What the OP and others have to realize is that Jerry is a troll. And that's a nice way of saying "idiot."