59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

[Erithus]

Hi, first post!

I am sorry if this has been solved before but I could not find a relevant answer to my problem.

I have recently rewired my Epiphone Les Paul and purchased the 59N/JB combo as it was highly recommended and I wanted my Tool tone fix. I put 500k CTS pots in addition to 0.22uF orange drops capacitors.

The guitar has changed completely character (compared to the Probucker 2/3 combo). I find the new pickups to be clearer and with stronger presence for the higher frequencies.

However, for the life of me, I cannot make the middle position to reproduce a distinct tone to the neck pickup. Whatever I try, the neck and middle positions are the same, even if I have checked that both pickups are working by tapping the pole pieces. I have also experimented with lowering the 59 drastically without success. What is crazy is that the JB is quite louder on its own and yet it is always overpowered by the 59

This has been driving me crazy for the past couple of weeks; with so many people recommend this combo, it must a be a problem on my end. Please advise!

Thank you very much.

ps. Any suggestions on removing brightness from the combo will also be highly appreciated... Thanks!!!

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

Change the volume controls to 250k pots for a darker tone, or for a less drastic change in tone, replace all of your pots with 450k pots.

As for the middle position issue, could you send pictures of the controls and pickup selector cavities? That would help greatly. What I'm guessing is that in some place or another the bridge pickup is not getting connected into the middle position.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

I would bet the switch is bad, e.g. The tangs or "blades" that get pushed against each other are bent in a way that is not making bridge contact in the middle position.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

That's what I was thinking.

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

Thank you for your recommendations! What you are suggesting really makes sense. I will revert to my old switch and see if there are improvements. I will keep you posted!

As for the wiring, I am attaching the following pictures. Please be kind about how bad they are, it was my first time!

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

So I have now changed the switch to the old one and the problem persists.

I have also measured the pickup resistance and I got reasonable values.

One thing to note is that as soon as I start rolling down the neck volume (around 9) the sound becomes more distinct. Not sure if this matters tbh.

Also, could it be that the pickups are out of phase?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

Looks like the shield of one of the 2-conductor wires is running across the hot lead of the bridge volume. If what it looks like is true, I'm surprised if the bridge puts out any sound in any position.

FWIW In the photos, the part of the switch that matters is not visible. You'd have to unscrew the switch from the guitar without unsoldering it and look at the metal "tangs" or "blades" of it from the side to see if the switch parts are making correct contact in each position. It's not unusual for the same kind of switch to be messed up the same way in the same guitar for the same player. I've had at least three switches have the same problem for me in my SG.

But now looking at your control cavity I don't think it's the switch. I think it's the way you have wires and components coming in contact with the lugs on the pots when it's closed up.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

I don't think so, if the pickups are out of phase that would mean that the middle position would be thin and whimpy. There is the chance that you put a bad solder joint somewhere in there. I'd try a complete re-wire and make sure that nothing is touching anything it shouldn't be.

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

Looks like the shield of one of the 2-conductor wires is running across the hot lead of the bridge volume. If what it looks like is true, I'm surprised if the bridge puts out any sound in any position.

Just saw it myself; it's just the photo. The cable runs at the bottom of the cavity and does not touch the lugs.

FWIW In the photos, the part of the switch that matters is not visible. You'd have to unscrew the switch from the guitar without unsoldering it and look at the metal "tangs" or "blades" of it from the side to see if the switch parts are making correct contact in each position. It's not unusual for the same kind of switch to be messed up the same way in the same guitar for the same player. I've had at least three switches have the same problem for me in my SG.

I realise that now. I have changed the switch with my fully-working old switch. Still the same behaviour.

But now looking at your control cavity I don't think it's the switch. I think it's the way you have wires and components coming in contact with the lugs on the pots when it's closed up.

I think I agree with you. I think a rewire might be in order...

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

I don't think so, if the pickups are out of phase that would mean that the middle position would be thin and whimpy. There is the chance that you put a bad solder joint somewhere in there. I'd try a complete re-wire and make sure that nothing is touching anything it shouldn't be.

It sounds like you are right... Maybe a re-wire is in order indeed...

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

So I have just rewired the whole thing, checking all connections individually... aaand the problem is still there.

One last thing that might be an issue; the neck pickup was used. Is there any reason to believe that there might be something wrong with it might make it to behave irregularly? The bridge pickup was bought new.

I am considering re-buying all electronics and re-doing the whole thing to be honest unless you guys have any recommendations...

Thanks!!!

 

[Nightburst]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

If the neck pickup is 2nd hand the first thing I would check is to see if the resistance of the pickup is the same as it is supposed to be around 7 or 8K on the multimeter if I remember correctly. Also check if there is actually a shiny alnico bar magnet in there and not a cceramic. You never know .

What you could also be experiencing is the bass of the 59 overpowering the JB making it sound boomy compared to it and adding that character to the both on middle position. You could try and magnet swap the A5 of the 59 for an A2 to tame the boomyness so it will play nicer combined with the JB. Or make the JB less bright with a 250 or 300 k pot like christopher said.

This was my first pickup combination too as it is highly recommended by many. I personally never liked this combo because I found them difficult to balance out without having to tinker with the pots or magnets etc. in the end I found it too much of a hassle and found other pickup combinations I liked better. Hope this helps and that you can make it work.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

What you could also be experiencing is the bass of the 59 overpowering the JB making it sound boomy compared to it and adding that character to the both on middle position. You could try and magnet swap the A5 of the 59 for an A2 to tame the boomyness so it will play nicer combined with the JB. Or make the JB less bright with a 250 or 300 k pot like christopher said.

This was my first pickup combination too as it is highly recommended by many. I personally never liked this combo because I found them difficult to balance out without having to tinker with the pots or magnets etc. in the end I found it too much of a hassle and found other pickup combinations I liked better. Hope this helps and that you can make it work.

I prefer an A4 in the 59n. It gets rid of the boominess and fills the mids in, while maintaining the character of the stock pickup.

I find an A4 59n and an A2 JB is a perfect set, without having to fiddle around with pot values or spending a half an hour getting the pickup heights right.

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

If the neck pickup is 2nd hand the first thing I would check is to see if the resistance of the pickup is the same as it is supposed to be around 7 or 8K on the multimeter if I remember correctly. Also check if there is actually a shiny alnico bar magnet in there and not a cceramic. You never know .

Thanks for suggesting this! The values are normal, around 7.4k. I actually replaced the wire the pickup came with as it was too short. I am attaching a photo of the disassembled pickup. I am not sure if this is how the original pickup magnet should look like!

What you could also be experiencing is the bass of the 59 overpowering the JB making it sound boomy compared to it and adding that character to the both on middle position. You could try and magnet swap the A5 of the 59 for an A2 to tame the boomyness so it will play nicer combined with the JB. Or make the JB less bright with a 250 or 300 k pot like christopher said.

I am confused by this statement; wouldn't the brighter JB highs overcome the 59 if that was the case? What I am experiencing is an almost identical 59 sound and a weird loss of power for the JB as tapping the JP poles in the middle position produces weaker sounds than when the switch is in the bridge. It seems as if the JB is not working correctly!

This was my first pickup combination too as it is highly recommended by many. I personally never liked this combo because I found them difficult to balance out without having to tinker with the pots or magnets etc. in the end I found it too much of a hassle and found other pickup combinations I liked better. Hope this helps and that you can make it work.

So what makes people recommend it in your opinion then? I mean, I am a very typical case of a user that wanted to upgrade their Epiphone and this has created a lot of work and frustration to me. Maybe I should have gotten the 59 bridge instead and forget about approaching Tool's sound

 

[Clint 55]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

I'm confused about this thread. So are you unhappy with middle position being warm and sounding mostly like neck position? Or are you positive you're getting no sound from the bridge? Did you turn the volume up on the bridge and mostly down on the neck to confirm that the bridge isn't contributing at all to middle position? The JB is an overwound pickup, so it makes middle position sound warm.

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

I'm confused about this thread. So are you unhappy with middle position being warm and sounding mostly like neck position? Or are you positive you're getting no sound from the bridge? Did you turn the volume up on the bridge and mostly down on the neck to confirm that the bridge isn't contributing at all to middle position? The JB is an overwound pickup, so it makes middle position sound warm.

I am sorry if I was not clear enough, this is really my first time with changing pickups etc. I will try to explain the problem.

In my previous set of pickups (Probucker 2/3), when switching between all positions (with the knobs in full volume/tone) I could get a very distinct sound at each position. Being the noob I am, I assume that this is how all HH combinations should work.

I have now upgraded to the 59/JB combo that many in this forum recommend and when the knobs are in full volume I can only get two distinct tones (neck/bridge). In the middle position, I get the same neck tone, even if the JB on its own is quite louder than the 59. Rolling off the neck volume starts to introduce the bridge pickup but to me this is really strange. I have lowered the 59 quite a bit with no changes to this behaviour.

It is as if the bridge pickup is held back. I have confirmed this by tapping the bridge pole pieces with a screwdriver in the middle position and they sound lower than in the bridge position.

I guess what I am trying to get out of this thread is that since no one else has this problem, I am trying to figure out whether I wired incorrectly something (I rewired yesterday and changed the switch) or whether this is expected behaviour or whether my particular pickups are faulty or whether this combo cannot work the way I intend it to work.

I hope I was a bit clearer? Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Clint 55]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

Yeah I understand you. My instinct is that your guitar is working right. That's natural to have to turn down the neck pickup with the bridge on full in middle position to get more contribution from the bridge. The JB is an overwound pickup so on its own in its own position it sounds bright because of the nature of bridge position. But when you add it to another pickup it sounds very warm. I have an HHH Strat with a JB and I use a blender knob to get neck and bridge position while the 5 way switch has the neck pickup selected. And frequently I'll forget if it's only neck or neck and bridge with the blender knob engaged. If I want to get a bright middle position, I'll have to select bridge and blend in only a little neck.

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

Yeah I understand you. My instinct is that your guitar is working right. That's natural to have to turn down the neck pickup with the bridge on full in middle position to get more contribution from the bridge. The JB is an overwound pickup so on its own in its own position it sounds bright because of the nature of bridge position. But when you add it to another pickup it sounds very warm. I have an HHH Strat with a JB and I use a blender knob to get neck and bridge position while the 5 way switch has the neck pickup selected. And frequently I'll forget if it's only neck or neck and bridge with the blender knob engaged. If I want to get a bright middle position, I'll have to select bridge and blend in only a little neck.

Thanks for this information Clint, very helpful. I guess I was expecting a more balanced response as was with the factory pickups.

To achieve a distinct tone in the middle position at full volume for both knobs, which bridge pickup would you recommend for the 59n? Is my guess that the 59b / 59 Hybrid / Custom 5 be better for this due to the resistances being closer?

 

[DonP]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

It is sounding like that switch is the issue. If it was dirty, in the middle position it might be fully contacting the neck but barely contacting the bridge.

 

[Erithus]

Re: 59N/JB combo does not work on middle position

It is sounding like that switch is the issue. If it was dirty, in the middle position it might be fully contacting the neck but barely contacting the bridge.

I have actually tried two different switches with the same result...