59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Thermionik

Thermionik

New member
Noob here - trawled the search jobbie and read loads here over the last few months. My suspicions were confirmed, and as a result I replaced the stock pups with 59's.

The sound is all I wanted and more. Just a question on that gravel sound when played hard (somebody else described it way better on here.....). The pups are uncovered and mounted well (no loose rattle stuff).

Is it affected by the distance of the string to the pup? I know further away makes it quieter and too near damps the strings, and I am not even sure if I want to tame it atall (kinda nice growl at times). Its just those occasional over enthusiastic chords - which can sound weird, and I was wondering if there was a solution that would help tame that particular sound without harming the otherwise great tone.

Oh - and are there any major downsides to fitting a Bigsby B7? Tone, playability etc.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

welcome to the forum!
now, about that gravelly sound...
where in the tonal range is it happening, is it some sort of low end flub or more of a wierd mid-grind, or a sort of grainy-ness? it only comes out when you play chords? do you use high gain or more of a bluesy overdrive, or just plain clean tone? what kind of music do you play?
and about the bigsby, it might take some of the sustain away. dunno about playability tho, never owned one or had the chance to give one a good workout.
 
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Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Welcome to the world of high-def pickups. A '59 pair is an excellent choice (I've got a few 335's, Sheraton included). If you're getting an unwanted tone playing hard, it could be the PU's are a little too close to the strings, or it could be from your amp (it's a big part of the tone equation that gets overlooked).

When I started converting my imported guitars over from stock PU's to high quality American & European ones, there was a huge difference in tone that I had to get used to. Gone was the blurred, muddy sounds of cheap Asian PU's. I suddenly had clarity & definition! But, with good PU's you're going to hear more of your amp's shortcomings too.

Did you do the install yourself? Got any more guitars to change PU's or wiring on?
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Thermionik said:
Noob here - trawled the search jobbie and read loads here over the last few months. My suspicions were confirmed, and as a result I replaced the stock pups with 59's.

The sound is all I wanted and more. Just a question on that gravel sound when played hard (somebody else described it way better on here.....). The pups are uncovered and mounted well (no loose rattle stuff).

Is it affected by the distance of the string to the pup? I know further away makes it quieter and too near damps the strings, and I am not even sure if I want to tame it atall (kinda nice growl at times). Its just those occasional over enthusiastic chords - which can sound weird, and I was wondering if there was a solution that would help tame that particular sound without harming the otherwise great tone.

Oh - and are there any major downsides to fitting a Bigsby B7? Tone, playability etc.
Click to expand...

Chances are your pickups are too close to the strings as that will create a fairly gritty and harsh sound with virtually any pup, especially A5's as they are higher output than say A2.

Your probably aware of this, however as blueman mentioned your amp and it's tubes are also critical. (particularly bias)
You may like to consider a set of power tubes that are measured and rated for distortion onset. Quite a number of companies selling tubes now do this.

Ideally you are setting your guitars volume for clean until you really strike or pick hard to create tube breakup from your amp. You may need to go to a heavier gauge set of strings as well.

I have no experience in fitting a bigbsy on a guitar however if you believe a lot of the stories re people that have ( do a search here or elsewhere on fitting a bigsby ) it seems the majority are unhappy with tuning stability and the drop off in sustain and so invest in alternate bridges to try and cure this with limited success. (I've done this with an Epi Wildkat - a slight improvement in stability at the expense of sustain.)

One thing for sure, .... A bigsby looks killer and with gentle use is o.k.
(No Hendrix impersonations allowed.)
 
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Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Just find the sweet spot for the pups and maybe not be so "enthusiastic" with those chords.
Heavy hitting will cause alot of vibration.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

On my Sheraton I can impart the above descriptions when hitting hard(extraneous noises/"growl"), but more so if I strum closer to the neck than the bridge. If I want to keep chords sounding "tight" I tend to strum closer to the bridge or over the bridge pickup. I've noticed that I will pick a little lighter or with more control hitting the strings closer to the neck or neck pickup; a bit harder and with a wider swing in the arm if I'm over the bridge pickup.

I'd say experimenting with pickup heights and right hand positioning will probably alleviate most of what the OP is talking about. As for the Bigsby, I have no experience.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

This is down to the guitar blueman335 - my Tele and Strat don't do it, nor the LP or SG copies, only the Sherry. Also it does the same gravel sound DI into a soundcard - enabling me to fast-fourier and analyse the waveform..... sorry wanmei1, my Bassman only does it on the Sherry - not the much louder pups on my Strat (like 5dB louder.....). And Thunder - same thing - only the Sherry does it, louder and hotter pupp'd guitars haven't given me the problem - though the sweet spot both height-wise AND plucking position along the string may need some work.

It seems to be the presence of Harmonics on loudly plucked notes which are absent on quietly plucked notes and on the dacaying tail end of the loudly plucked notes.

For example - on plucking the A-string we get the 110Hz fundamental, of course.
When plucked relatively qietly, we get A2, A3, E4 and A4 all within some 20dB or less.
There is a slight C#5 and very quiet E5 and little else.

Louder plucking introduces a relative shift in the lower harmonics wherby they are within 10dB of the fundamental, with even E5 within 15dB on the loudest attack.

More significantly is the introduction of even more harmonics with louder plucking, at a very hard hit, there are audible contributions from (G5)(A5)(B5)(C#6)(D#6)(E6)(F#6)(G#6) with the obvious discords involved producing the strange gravel sound noted.

This is aggravated by my Blonde Bassman's treble response (very good !) unless the treble is cut a bit - but sounds fine with the SoundCity 20watt and my Aria Loco Micro 4102 unless I wind the treble right up.

I can thus lose the sound by either winding down the tone controls or dropping the volume (which seems to cut treble too), but I was wondering if there was an underlying cause/cure like pup:string distance (currently 3/16 bridge and 1/4 neck) or wedging the pups tight in the hole or something.....

And many, many thanks for the input so far - don't get me wrong - I am absolutely in love with the sound of the 59's 99% of the time and just wondering if I can remove that 1% problem rather than 'playing around it'.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

It's possible that there is some wobble in the hardware. Couldn't hurt to check it and see if something's moving around on the harder strums.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Chances are your pickup is TOO CLOSE to the strings !

Lower it down until the pickup is a sixteenth of an inch below the pickup ring and have a listen, if clean then you know that the pickup was too close. Afterward raise the height until you notice the distortion reappear then lower again until it's gone.

If that doesn't fix the problem then you have an "allergy" to A5 magnets, which means you are in a minority in being able to hear the inherent distortion of an A5 magnet.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Sanford said:
It's possible that there is some wobble in the hardware. Couldn't hurt to check it and see if something's moving around on the harder strums.
Click to expand...
And if somethings moving, go Tone Pro's locking.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Sanford - nearer to the neck than the bridge is good - makes a major difference. Checked everything that could be loose and apart from the pups themselves, nada. And the pups are firm against foam.....

wanmei1 - you also nailed it, dropped the pups and then slowly wound them up..... and just about a 32nd" below the original position seemed to be the sweet-height. Problem largely gone as a result.

And Thunder - thanks for that too - but the electrickery stuff is sound.

So - problem solved with almost no loss of level (lowering the pups) and a slight adjustment of playing (no more melodramatic chords over the neck pup).

Awesome forum, awesome help and advice, awesome pups. It don't get much better than this. :thanks:
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Back the pups off a little bit. Rattle will likely go AND the tone may well sweeten!
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Glad to have been of some help. Enjoy your Sheraton II.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Howdy,

My ES-335 sounds great with '59s, as I've posted several times here. I hope you get your minor issues sorted out, as the tone is there, trust me. :) Good luck.

Eggman
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Sorry eggman - yah must have missed the post above.....

All sorted - dropped the pups a very small ammount and learned to hit those poser power chords just behind the neck pup rather than over it - all the weird partials are gone now, sounds real good - heck, it was really not an issue, just a minor niggle anyway.....

....though I am sure it doesn't sound as good as the real thing <grin>
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Howdy,

Oops! my mistake; I should've been paying attention. Enjoy your '59s in that Sheraton. :)

Eggman
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Thermionik said:
all the weird partials are gone now, sounds real good....though I am sure it doesn't sound as good as the real thing <grin>
Click to expand...

For what you (and I) spent on our Sheratons and upgraded PU's, we have some very nice sounding guitars. For only another $2,000, we could get a "real" 335 that may sound just a little bit better.
 
Re: 59's on an Epi Sheraton II

Yeah - I mentioned that price differential on the Epi forum and got severely slapped down. Personally ( and I have tried both side by side ) for playability and sound I am as happy with my Sherry as with a number of ES-335s tried at the same time.

When you look at cost..... well, I'd put the difference to good use AND not have the worry of a guitar that is like a magnet for thieves or would cost me a fortune if it got smacked, snapped or zapped.

But be careful where you say it..... :naughty:
 
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