59's vs Jazz's.

[Artie]

I agree, the 59Jazz hybrid (2x bridge) is an amazing, all around neck pickup.

Which coil, (stud or screw), of each pup do you prefer for this mod? Sounds intriguing.

 

[Archer250]

Also important: the 59 is wound with PE wires and the Jazz with poly.

IME, wire insulation matters just as much as the wind. Kinda makes sense since you can generalize a "period" of guitar pickups that sound similar, despite them being wound somewhat haphazardly back then in the 50s and 60s

Personally I prefer 59s in Les Pauls and Jazz in superstrats. And this kinda has been the case for me with pickups that aren't SDs either. I like A5 or A2 mid-output PAFs with Les Pauls and A5 poly "tight PAF" with superstrats

 

[freefrog]

Inductances & DCR measured on two recent neck models:

SH1 neck: 7.5k, 4.27H

SH2 neck: a bit more than 7k, 3.57H

The "inductive ratio" noticed here is roughly the same than between a mid scooped 69 and a Fat 50 among Fender Strat SC's... So, no wonder IMHO if they sound different...

I share below the crude resonant peaks of the SH1 & SH2 aforementioned (mounted in their host guitars and tested through a same average cable). Each pickup was a 4 conductors model.

It should suggest what the tonal difference can be albeit both PU's have their resonant peaks centered around the same prominent frequency...

FWIW.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

I agree, the 59Jazz hybrid (2x bridge) is an amazing, allround neck pickup. It has the woody character of the 59 and the fluid transparency of the Jazz.

Make a 59N/JazzN hybrid, though, add an alnico II and you get such a sweet, smooth, clear tone that sings and has an almost singlecoil like voice under high gain.

I have been advocating for these 2 pickups for years (with a pearly/custom hybrid, jb/fullshred hybrid amongst others). The guys at the factory of SD loved them, but SD moves slower than tectonic plates, so this will just never happen.

Yep, I remember your hybrid experiments – very useful 'literature'!

The one in my guitar is from neck models of the respective pups – 59 screw (neck facing, engaged in split) and Jazz slug. I didn't try the other leftover one (gave it to a mate), so can't comment about whether it sounded different.

Interesting about the A2; the guitar I have it in is kinda aggressive and tight sounding (also 24 frets), so having a bit more low is ok. I imagine it would be pretty good with an A4 as well.

 

[EC Strat]

Love the A2 Pro but the 59 A2 is different. Hard to describe the difference but it has worked well for me with ash bodies in particular.

LOVE the ‘59’s with A2’s. Magic

 

[Teleplayer]

Inductances & DCR measured on two recent neck models:

SH1 neck: 7.5k, 4.27H

SH2 neck: a bit more than 7k, 3.57H

Hi freefrog,
I wonder if you could double check the measurement of the SH-2. I expected around 7.33k and 4.25H. Quite close or only slightly less than the SH-1.

 

[misterwhizzy]

I like the 59n with A2, but I ended up at roughcast Alnico 3 years ago after having tried 2, 4, and 5. I think that’s the best my Les Paul will do with this wind.

 

[freefrog]

Hi freefrog,
I wonder if you could double check the measurement of the SH-2. I expected around 7.33k and 4.25H. Quite close or only slightly less than the SH-1.

Hello,

I've no more these pickups at disposal. But they are always measured twice or more, with the same lab meters so I don't think it's an error: in this case, the SH2 had apparently the low DCR (7.04H precisely) & low inductance mentioned above.

Please, note that I've not generalized the results shared... albeit Duncan's are pretty consistent, especially when they come from a same batch, I rarely measure the same values on two pickups from different decades or years. It's true for all brands IME, Duncan included.

If ever I share(d) the specs & measured resonance of a vintage Seymourized SH1 / 59 (those with a sticker like in my avatar pic), it would/will even suggest that original 59's have very little in common with recent ones...

BTW measured inductance can change with frequency so a same pickup can exhibit different inductances on two different meters. So my shared data are always to take with a grain of salt: they make sense only if compared to each others. But I'll search some other SH2 measurements in my archives when time will permit it.

 

[freefrog]

Well, I've dug a bit in my archives and have found nothing higher than 3.97H of inductance for a SH-2 / Jazz neck...

In the page below, the tester states 3.92H for a normal SH-2 neck and 4.25H for a Custom shop version of the same model, FWIW...

https://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8032/seymour-duncan-jazz-analysis-review

While I'm at it: I disagree with the way to test pickups in this link. The person doing these tests always puts his exciter coil between the two coils and perpendicular to the pickup. It's the best possible way to cancel the differences between coils, which is a critical parameter in the tone of a humbucker... IME, the coils must be excited separately in such a case, with an exciter parallel to the pickup. It's way more important IMHO than using an "integrator" to convert voltage in current...

 

[Teleplayer]

I measured my SH-2n and got 4.27H at 250Hz. I have never owned a SH-1 '59 Neck.

If you suggest to measure pickup response with dual exciter coils, wouldn't it need to model the string vibration as well? I'm not sure if it would make much difference for neck pickups.

 

[Demanic]

Been playing my guitar with the new Jazz neck. It's a bolt on superstrat Jackson with a Floyd. Love, love, love this pickup in this guitar. Beautiful sparkling top end. Plenty of low end definition without being boomy. Roll the tone knob back a bit and it sweetens up quick.
I have a 59n in a set neck mahogany superstrat Shecter. I modded it with a polished A4. Love it but stock it was a bit boomy. It definitely has more overall body than the Jazz. I love it split.

Sent from my SM-A115A using Tapatalk

 

[Artie]

I have a 59n in a set neck mahogany superstrat Shecter. I modded it with a polished A4. Love it but stock it was a bit boomy. It definitely has more overall body than the Jazz. I love it split.

Somewhere, I have a 59n around here, and an A4 mag. I'm going to have to try that combo in something.

 

[freefrog]

If you suggest to measure pickup response with dual exciter coils, wouldn't it need to model the string vibration as well? I'm not sure if it would make much difference for neck pickups.

It's certainly possible to model string vibration: some people like Guy Lemarquand have done a fantastic work about that.

Measuring anything related to string vibration is another story : non linearity is at work even with the most robotic string picker and the only way to minimize it is to average long recorded samples, IMHO/IME.

That's why I like dynamic tests relying on electrically induced impulse responses rather than string vibration.

Regarding pickups position, I like this fantastic tool, personally : http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/

I've found that mixing the results of this simulator with the measured resonant peaks of both coils in a humbucker gives a fairly close approximation of what the pickup delivers under strings (played by human hand but whose frequency response has been averaged).

Out of my indifferent thoughts and to come back on topic: so your SH2 neck seems to have a rather high inductance, like the Custom Shop model measured on guitarnutz... In my own notes, SH2's tend to be roughly in the T-Top range, with a wee bit more inductance due to their longer mags (but still with a lower inductivity than SH1's)... So, I'd shamelessly tend towards a commonplace saying that SH2 vs SH1 exhibit the same kind of difference than between T-Top and P.A.F.'s or between L series and CBS Strat PU's... YMMV.

 

[orpheo]

Which coil, (stud or screw), of each pup do you prefer for this mod? Sounds intriguing.

I enjoyed both versions. The differences in tone weren't that huge if memory serves. A slight shift in the EQ but the overall feel and response remained the same. The 59Jazz is just an amazing pickup and I haven't heard any neck pickup, ever, even come close.

 

[Artie]

I enjoyed both versions. The differences in tone weren't that huge if memory serves. A slight shift in the EQ but the overall feel and response remained the same. The 59Jazz is just an amazing pickup and I haven't heard any neck pickup, ever, even come close.

Thanks. I'm not sure if I'm going to mess with it or not. The Jazz, as it is, just works perfect in this guitar, with 250k pots. Maybe some time later.

 

[Teleplayer]

That's why I like dynamic tests relying on electrically induced impulse responses rather than string vibration.

Regarding pickups position, I like this fantastic tool, personally : http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/

I've found that mixing the results of this simulator with the measured resonant peaks of both coils in a humbucker gives a fairly close approximation of what the pickup delivers under strings (played by human hand but whose frequency response has been averaged).[/COLOR]

It makes sense if you can combine the theoretical string vibration with the measured response from each pole of the pickup. Each pickup pole would have slightly different magnetic flux pattern and frequency response, but importantly, they are also sensing a different part of the string.

Out of my indifferent thoughts and to come back on topic: so your SH2 neck seems to have a rather high inductance, like the Custom Shop model measured on guitarnutz... In my own notes, SH2's tend to be roughly in the T-Top range, with a wee bit more inductance due to their longer mags (but still with a lower inductivity than SH1's)... So, I'd shamelessly tend towards a commonplace saying that SH2 vs SH1 exhibit the same kind of difference than between T-Top and P.A.F.'s or between L series and CBS Strat PU's... YMMV.

I have measured some other neck pickups for comparison:
Duncan SH-2n, L=4.27H
Suhr SSV neck, L=4.61H
Dimarzio 36th PAF neck, L=4.62H
Dimarzio PAF PRO, L=4.76H

 

[freefrog]

It makes sense if you can combine the theoretical string vibration with the measured response from each pole of the pickup. Each pickup pole would have slightly different magnetic flux pattern and frequency response, but importantly, they are also sensing a different part of the string.

I totally agree with your statement and wouldn't have worded it in a better way.

I have measured some other neck pickups for comparison:
Duncan SH-2n, L=4.27H
Suhr SSV neck, L=4.61H
Dimarzio 36th PAF neck, L=4.62H
Dimarzio PAF PRO, L=4.76H

Thx for sharing.

Your meter seems to deliver more generous inductance measurements than what has been or is used here (Tonghui, Rigol, Jeulin, Wavetek). If memory serves me, 4.6H is +/- the inductance of pickups like the Gibson Burstbucker Pro, Duncan PG or Duncan A2P bridge models in my archived data. Let's note nevertheless that results change not only with the frequency but according to the meter used ...

Now, relatively speaking, it's meaningful IMHO: these 0.4H or 0.5H of difference that you mention between SH2n and the others are the kind of difference noticed between pickups named in my post 33 (when they are tested with a same meter at a same frequency, whatever they are): Less than one Henry and even half an Henry of difference are enough IMHO/IME to create a tonal gap between magnetic transducers - like the SH2 and SH1 discussed in this topic. )