A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I would suggest at least a wider replica of the body. Bar vibrations can respond in notably different ways from plate vibrations. If you wish to include feedback influence in your tests (which is where I believe effects to be most notably apparent), the a broader surface area and a wider plate could be critical in revealing these effects.

Some examples of plate vs bar modes in a guitar- http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/guitars/coronet.html

Just to be clear, are you saying the presence of/lack of bar or plate vibration has a bearing on whether variation in various wood samples is likely to be observed?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

For the record, a 4x4 would be best avoided since few solid bodies are 4" thick, I'd go 2x12 perhaps to roughly represent a body, and maybe 1x2 for a neck. In this test, the subject is basically just "chunk of wood in the ballpark of a solid body guitar", and if there's a reason you'd never liken such a chunk of wood to an actual electric for the sake of this test, I'd be interested in hearing what it is, to see if the reason represents a caveat, a minor issue, or even completely defeats the purpose of the test.

It seems to me that if wood makes a difference, a rectangular sample of wood will exhibit that difference, and it shouldn't be necessary for the wood to even shaped like a guitar, since that shape is born of ergonomic considerations and not necessarily to draw out the delicious tone from the wood.

2" thick, 12" wide, appropriate guitar-ish length for a bolt-on or neck-through? That sounds a lot better. Sorry if I missed that earlier. That's the idea -- give the material a chance to behave something like it does in a guitar. Doesn't have to be exact, just ballpark. There's no reason to built complete, finished guitars (unless we wanted to do that for fun or other reasons), but I also would hate for people to come away from testing with lingering doubts that we didn't go far enough in the accuracy of the simulation. I think it's important not to lose sight that the assertion of "tonewood believers" is that players can hear the differences in guitars made of various materials, not that we can hear the differences in other, non-guitar objects. If you want to prove that someone can't distinguish between mahogany and ash in a guitar body, your best approach is probably not to use a back scratcher or a tree stump from each type of wood.

Do I think a guitar's shape and dimensions give it special resonant properties that may not be present in other form factors? Maybe. Testing different sizes and shapes would be a nice way to find out. But if we were going to test with just one template, I think it should err on the side of more closely conforming to actual guitar dimensions. We talk about isolating the variable, and in this case it's the material, but we're not trying to isolate the materials from the context -- we're trying to isolate the material as the only thing that's different from one test unit to another.

If we were going to isolate the material from the context, we should probably take uniform samples of each material, hit them with a mechanical impulse from a tightly-controlled piston or something, record it, then analyze the spectral and time-domain behavior of the sample's vibration. (Someone suggested that earlier on, when I was busy complaining about something else.) How do the results vary with the extrinsic properties of the sample? How much does the internal non-uniformity of a piece of wood matter? I kinda wanna do all the experiments. Can we? Pleeeeeeeeease?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Just to be clear, are you saying the presence of/lack of bar or plate vibration has a bearing on whether variation in various wood samples is likely to be observed?

I think it might. I'd rather find out than assume one way or the other. We can err on the side of more accuracy without knowing or pretending to know, but I think it would be a mistake to overlook or dismiss it.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Not certainly, but probably.
If it doesn't evidence itself under those sterile conditions but DOES manifest in a guitar, that means the mechanism of action that makes the tonewood 'tonewood'y' is some specific interplay between guitar-centric components and not just vibrating the wood itself, in the same general proximity to a string and pickup.

That seems EXTREMELY unlikely.
Less likely than the tonewood narrative itself.

So you'd rather assume than find out? To be clear, I'm questioning whether the "tonewood" behavior, to the extent that guitarists experience it, might be mitigated in objects that are very different in size and shape from guitars. We're talking about mechanical vibrations in a sample of material. Ever compare the sonic signature of an empty aluminum soda can to that of a solid bar of milled aluminum?
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

So you'd rather assume than find out?

If several 2x12 samples yield no differences, I can cut them into the shape up a guitar and see what happens. At some point the onus is on the person claiming you have to spinkle pixie dust onto the lumber to explain why the pixie dust should be necessary, though, otherwise you'd be able to delay a conclusion by sending the tester on a wild goose chase, requiring that they alter the test scenario in ways that will never flip a negative result into a positive one.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

^ I added to my post while you were typing. Take another look?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Size and shape are pixie dust. Have you ever seen a pipe organ? Sure, it's essentially an acoustic instrument at that point, but what do you think is going on within the walls of those tubes, at a vibrational level?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Here's an anecdote of relevance from my shop some years back.

I had a particular client with a Veleno-style aluminum neck guitar. One piece neck to bridge, with a wood body surrounding it on the sides and butt end. The guitar originally came with the pickups hard mounted to the aluminum frame - no cushioning or springs, and the owner simply could not use it on stage due to the high pitched squeal an feedback it woul generate at moderate volume.

The I do not recall the make of the pickups, but they were epoxy potted and not microphonic in the least. Just to be clear, I know pickups quite well. I learned to wind my first pickups with time with Seymour (and some time with Lindy Fralin and Jim Rolph) starting back about 20 years, and I know how to test for microphonic properties. Given that this was a suspect cause I can assure you I tested quite thoroughly, and they were as solid and unshakable as they come. Likewise for all the original mounting hardware. No microphonics, uncontrollable high squeal feedback.

After milling suitable recess in the aluminum frame, I experimented with spring and cushion mounting to the aluminum, and finally settled on installing brackets to the wood for a more traditional mount. The final effects compared to the original were absolutely night and day. Where originalally you could not turn the amp up above 3 without piercing squeal, now this was gone and you could crank up to 11 and sustain fundamentals and low overtones forever. It went from unusable to wonderful, simply by changing what part of the chassis the pickups were mounted to. There were no loose components or microphonics, and the changes were not the sort of thing that could be affected by expectations or bias.

Now this is a bit different from the topic at hand, as it does not involve comparing woods, but rather an extreme change in pickup mounting. It does demonstrate a few things quite poignantly though.

First - pickup vibration can affect tone, even in absence of any microphonics. I'm not saying that changing from springs to tubing on your Strat is going to turn your world upside down, but in extreme cases pickup vibration induced by components it is attached to can affect changes in performance. So the question is not one of can it happen at all, but rather where does the difference limen or relative threshold lie? Will pickups mounted to a floppy diaphragm of single ply pickguard vs hard to a wood body cross this threshold of just noticeable difference? I think that's a good question (if I do say so myself). What about then, pickups mounted to two different woods with different characteristics of resonant feedback? Maple vs African mahogany? I really don't know, but given the enormous difference witnessed between aluminum and alder mounting, I would not be so cocky as to say there were no chance of any change at all until I did some controlled testing to base that claim on.

Second, it should serve as a clear reminder that feedback starts in the chassis. Whether the end results of my comparison had anything to do with pickups being driven relative to the strings by the wood, or it was simply because they were better isolated from the high frequency vibrations present in the aluminum neck, I really can't say. Still, feedback starts primarily in the wood. It's the primary driver of the strings at this point,. It's not just for wild screaming solos, but modest volume sustain, how easily you can coax out swells in the lower harmonics or fundamentals. Can you bring in the heavy squeals with ease, or do you have to lean right up against your cabinet?

Feedback, feedback, feedback. It's not just an occasionally used gimmick, but present to some degree in your final tone once you get anywhere near stage level. Properties of chassis woods may or may not have some level of influence on the initial damping and reflection at low volumes, but once you turn up the wood becomes an active component which drives the strings depending on how it resonates (and few would be foolish enough to argue that different woods do not respond differently with sympathetic vibration).

With all this in mind, I hold it to be quite plain that those who advocate wood type to be entirely irrelevant may be holding the more extraordinary claim, and therefore the greater burden of proof in their argument.

Of course this example is not an isolated source on which I base my position, just one of the more dramatic. I've built a few hundred guitars, worked on many thousands, taught over a hundred students and mentored and handful of apprentices over the years. I used to win bets all the time on identifying the model, back and sides, and top woods of acoustic guitars played behind my back, and can regularly identify smaller changes in potentiometer and cap values than most can blind, so I feel confident that I have a decent ear.

I'm also a dedicated skeptic though. Although I've worked my entire adult life full time in lutherie, I do not underestimate the potential of subjective interference in my perceptions. I've studied physchoacoustics as a side interest over the years, and am quite familiar with limits of human perception. I do employ diligent and standardized methods of testing when I am engaged in a serious test, and try to keep a reasonable mind when considerig my own anecdotal experiences, but have yet to embark on any well controlled tests on this topic.

For these reasons, although I have a strong opinion based on far more extensive experience than many, I keep my certainty in check and will not declare any absolutes until suitable controlled evidence can be demonstrated. Until then I am equally as ready to accept that my ears have been fooled all this time if the evidence demonstrates such, as I am to having my current position verified. To take any other stance in absence of suitable evidence would simply be unscientific.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Size and shape are pixie dust. Have you ever seen a pipe organ? Sure, it's essentially an acoustic instrument at that point, but what do you think is going on within the walls of those tubes, at a vibrational level?

Some of those tubes can be retangular and made of wood. I wonder what the science of that is ?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Just to be clear, are you saying the presence of/lack of bar or plate vibration has a bearing on whether variation in various wood samples is likely to be observed?



I believe that could be a possibility. Not sure, but if you could go wider without too much trouble I think it could be on the safe side.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I have a 4 year degree majoring in a hard science, with a minor in another hard science. I currently work in a hard science field in private industry. I live in the Northeast, am currently finishing up holiday vacation in the Southeast. I have green eyes and like chocolate.

If you choose to not believe (whatever) because I won't submit a detailed resume or dox myself, I couldn't possibly care any less.

What I do doesn't matter, though. Assume I shine shoes or shovel manure for all I care. This discussion hinges on the merits of the ideas.

You clearly missed my point in asking this question, so let me spell it out for you. If you really comprehend how science works and have any type of scientific background then you should already be aware that you are not approaching this topic/experiment in a manner befitting the scientific method. You are wanting to do this experiment with a goal of disproving all the "tone-wood-believers" and you are looking for data to suit your conclusion, not a conclusion to suit your data. In layman's terms, YOU ARE SEVERELY BIASED! Any scientific type would agree that makes you unfit to participate in that experiment as you are not open to what data you may find. You're in grave danger of committing the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

DreX, on the other hand, in his OP stated that the goal was to attempt to perform an experiment that would gather sufficient data to discern scientifically whether or not a solid body guitar's wood had an effect on tone or not. In short, he wants to gather data and allow the data to show what the conclusion should be. That is the scientific method, is it not? And to clear up any question of me being biased towards DreX, he and I do not get along. But in his aim here, he is following the scientific method.

A "four year college degree in a hard science"? How evasive of you. Most would say something like, "I have a bachelor's of science degree in chemistry". Interesting you chose to phrase it that way. None of the people I know refer to their "four year college degree in a hard science" that way. For someone who spends a lot of time appealing to science while never mentioning anything specific, you sure are coy about this. Regardless of your degree you talk very arrogantly while utilizing very little substance.

BTW, citing something is false by simply saying, "because science" would most certainly be committing an "appeal to authority" fallacy. For the record, ya' know.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Originally Posted by Tonewoods; The (not at all uncommon) problem is that you are one of those people who is apparently hard-wired to reconcile all information through an 'authority'.

As you predicate your scientific authority.:clap:
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

What frequency range is the transducer you're getting D rex ? They have resonant/fundamental frequencies too.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

As you predicate your scientific authority.:clap:

Well, that's the beauty of how he argues. He will accuse others of what he does himself. He cites that the merit and the substance are the important bit, yet provides no substance besides "science says you're wrong." Then of course does not elucidate further. Hence why I asked for some proof of his authority as he himself kept pointing out his authority because he stated that he understands science where those who disagree with him do not. Then he says his authority, if it is real, does not matter. Scientific background or not his ability to argue effectively is non-existent.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Eye sea; I get the picture.

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