A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Oh your such a fussy bugger.. then again Stratman might produce such an article to help prove this persuit is futile.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

If someone wants to make an experiment for the sake of science, why not let him do so?

That's a fair point, but by my judgement everything Drex has suggested for his test is almost a guarantee NOT to understand the differences. I appreciate the fact Drex is focused more on whether theres a delta, and let the masses argue whether that delta is large enough to be of value. But that can also be answered in the theoretical by magnifying the variance. Everyone would agree that making one guitar body out of rubber, and the other out of marble would affect NOT ONLY the acoustic sound, but the plugged in sound as well.

"But how is that possible if the pickup only hears magnetically?!" Because the material at either end of the string changes the way the string vibrates of course. So by narrowing the scope to Mahogany vs Alder for example, we already know there's a delta. Your ability to measure it is inconsequential.

I agree there's no room for vitriol on this subject. But Drex is asking for our opinions in this thread about his proposed methodology for testing. People can make an argument about his methodology that is not favorable. That might not be what Drex wants to hear on the forum, but that's not a slag.

That being said, in my humble opinion and with all due respect, Drex is out of his depth. If one was prepared for this kind of endeavor, one can't question whether you can remove some or many of the conditions that make an electric guitar what it is. I really don't even know where to begin. If the test doesn't include the regular body size, a neck, strings, etc it's ignoring the driving mechanism. If it doesn't include multiple notes, chords, velocities, and picking locations, it ignores the musicians' influence over the delta.

You need frets. Regardless of how high the action is, with a hard pick attack the initial clank of the string against the fret tops produces (and dramatically alters) the high frequency content. You need to move up and down the fretboard. You may have to get to a barred A chord before hearing the most difference in one wood type, while a G chord magnifies another.

In other words, I've seen musicians grab two different guitars and be able to play in such a way that they can say "see, this one doesn't do THAT as easily as the other one". The types of frequencies that are present in the decay of a note can dictate whether or not it decays pleasingly, stops bluntly, or slips into a controlled feedback loop.

The other component you need is SPL. The electric guitar responds to moderate to loud amps. There's a biofeedback loop you aren't even mentioning. That's the WOOD vibrating in tandem. Of course that is different with Ash than it is with Alder. It's so simple yet we want to make it complicated.

Drex I can't hold your hand through all of this, carry on if you must, and I'll try to help where I can. But at this point your very far away from yielding a meaningful result.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

That's a fair point, but by my judgement everything Drex has suggested for his test is almost a guarantee NOT to understand the differences. I appreciate the fact Drex is focused more on whether theres a delta, and let the masses argue whether that delta is large enough to be of value. But that can also be answered in the theoretical by magnifying the variance. Everyone would agree that making one guitar body out of rubber, and the other out of marble would affect NOT ONLY the acoustic sound, but the plugged in sound as well.

"But how is that possible if the pickup only hears magnetically?!" Because the material at either end of the string changes the way the string vibrates of course. So by narrowing the scope to Mahogany vs Alder for example, we already know there's a delta. Your ability to measure it is inconsequential.

I agree there's no room for vitriol on this subject. But Drex is asking for our opinions in this thread about his proposed methodology for testing. People can make an argument about his methodology that is not favorable. That might not be what Drex wants to hear on the forum, but that's not a slag.

That being said, in my humble opinion and with all due respect, Drex is out of his depth. If one was prepared for this kind of endeavor, one can't question whether you can remove some or many of the conditions that make an electric guitar what it is. I really don't even know where to begin. If the test doesn't include the regular body size, a neck, strings, etc it's ignoring the driving mechanism. If it doesn't include multiple notes, chords, velocities, and picking locations, it ignores the musicians' influence over the delta.

You need frets. Regardless of how high the action is, with a hard pick attack the initial clank of the string against the fret tops produces (and dramatically alters) the high frequency content. You need to move up and down the fretboard. You may have to get to a barred A chord before hearing the most difference in one wood type, while a G chord magnifies another.

In other words, I've seen musicians grab two different guitars and be able to play in such a way that they can say "see, this one doesn't do THAT as easily as the other one". The types of frequencies that are present in the decay of a note can dictate whether or not it decays pleasingly, stops bluntly, or slips into a controlled feedback loop.

The other component you need is SPL. The electric guitar responds to moderate to loud amps. There's a biofeedback loop you aren't even mentioning. That's the WOOD vibrating in tandem. Of course that is different with Ash than it is with Alder. It's so simple yet we want to make it complicated.

Drex I can't hold your hand through all of this, carry on if you must, and I'll try to help where I can. But at this point your very far away from yielding a meaningful result.
As always, I defer to you :)
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

wait wut?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

This; Beaubrummels.

Half a dozen different wood types cut to the same size. Attach a transducer to feed the signal, attach another at a different point to read the signal. A possible method.

If you search online there are many discussions on building speaker boxes and the resonance of wood , wood types and even people who have documented signal tests and resonance. Once again there is debate about the relevance and there are many camps.
This could show difference in tonal qualities of the wood acoustically speaking, however the debate here is whether those different acoustic tones are captured by the pickup and transmitted through the amp and speakers and still be heard.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

This could show difference in tonal qualities of the wood acoustically speaking, however the debate here is whether those different acoustic tones are captured by the pickup and transmitted through the amp and speakers and still be heard.
The OP was this;
I'm interested in seeing how much the frequency response differs between different types of wood, mostly to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'd like to do a good enough job that the results would reasonable useful, objective and worth sharing.

All I'm interested in determining is how much variation in tone can be observed simply by swapping out the pieces of wood in a simple test rig, and it seems to me that it shouldn't matter much that the test rig contain all the features of a working guitar, so with that in mind, I have a few questions pertaining to the complexity or, preferable, the simplicity of the experiment:
That's what most of the discussion has been pertaining to.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Was one of the comments after the article you Tonewoods?

Yes. My comment was under the handle "LOL".
One thing I've learned is that there's little point getting into protracted debates with people who have no scientific literacy, trying to use science as the benchmark of reason. They either discard it, or ignore what it really means, or they just don't understand it.

Since my interest in arguing it rhetorically is next to nil (even though that can be fun), it means there aren't many people even worth having this conversation with, although its worthwhile to at least present the science case since there are fence sitters who are able to conclude correctly with at least a toe-hold on the right information.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Isn't there already a modern electric guitar called the Teuffel Birdfish that has bars of wood that are exchangeable to alter the tone on the fly? Anyone explain that? .

Without bothering to inquire into the "Teuffel Birdfish", if their claim is they are altering the electric tone by altering the wood, you can see plenty of examples of complex devices making baseless claims here.

http://www.museumofquackery.com/

You appear to be naive, since your reasoning seems to be "WELL IF SOMEONE MAKES IT AND SOMEONE BUYS IT THEN OBVIOUSLY THAT MEANS ITS CREDIBLE!!!"
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

The following picture of Les Paul's original hum bucking guitar says it all, and disproves any notions about specialness of different woods species in electric guitars.

Its actually not conclusive, since science does not rest on what Les Paul does (even though his intent was to eliminate the various ****noises electric guitars of that era tended to make and he succeeded to various degrees).

The LP 'log' is a great example, though, to explode the commonly heard, horse**** appeal-to-authority fallacy of "WELL IF WOOD AINT MAKE NO DIFFERENCE TA TOAN DEN WHY LES PAUL USE MAPLE CAPS???"

Gee. I... I wonder why...

gibson-les-paul-standard-guitar-for-sale-bare-knuckle-pickups-faded-cherry-2006-002.jpg
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

But it changes the question from "is there a difference to be seen?" to "can the seen difference be heard?", and I would be satisfied to have narrowed it down some.

Since what can be heard will be 'seen' by default but what can be seen will not nessacarily be heard, what matters is what can be heard, not what can be seen.

This is not to say 'what can be seen' is not an interesting question. Its just that the much bigger question is what can be heard, so testing what can be heard is what matters since demonstrating a subtle variable under spectrography will only serve to subsidize the delusion if that same variety cannot be perceived with human ears.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I love how this Tonewoods character constantly ignores true scientific wisdom from people like Collins and Falbo then continues to stereotype anybody who might be in the believers category as idiots. It's a classic "if they are not on my side of the argument then they have no cred" move. However, when guys like Collins have more intelligent viewpoints on scientific possibilities without drawing any factual conclusions before conducting experiements... Tonewoods seems to ignore them.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

The other component you need is SPL. The electric guitar responds to moderate to loud amps. There's a biofeedback loop you aren't even mentioning. That's the WOOD vibrating in tandem. Of course that is different with Ash than it is with Alder. It's so simple yet we want to make it complicated.

Hahaha.

So your theory here is that if we put a guitarist in a room behind a cloth screen and another guitarist in another room all together with a longer cord ran into the same amp and A/B'd them, the one nearer the amp would have a 'different one' because of some circuitous relationship UNRELATED to signal feedback but related to vibrating ambient wood?

What makes the 'test' so difficult is overcoming all the specious horse**** that is inevitably presented as "... everyone knows".
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

To my satisfaction, this experiment was carried out years ago.

Skip to 14:50 in the video below. Granted, in his objective he was looking to amplify the sound, but note that at 16:07 he directly addressed the influence of wood on the electrified sound by needing to use a dense, metal, railroad tie to defeat unwanted vibrations from wood that were influencing the sound audibly. Then skip to 1:12:40 where he discusses his experiments with using a 4x4 as a center block - while not quoted at that point in the video, the reason for these experiments were because of the woods influence on sustain, clarity and and his desire to amplify that so the guitar was audible in a band and defeat feedback problems of amplifying a hollow-body - demonstrating that both wood and construction does influence the sound audibly in an electrified guitar. His experiments were focused around using density of materials to defeat vibrations of the wood influencing the amplified sound, so based on his experiments, the degree of audible influence of various woods would have some correlation to the density of the wood that the string is anchored into.


See also:

Starting at paragraph 5:
https://rockhall.com/education/outs...an-music-masters-series/2008--les-paul/essay/

http://www.lespaulfoundation.org/blog/les-pauls-inventions-part-5/
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

To my satisfaction, this experiment was carried out years ago.

Skip to 14:50 in the video below. Granted, in his objective he was looking to amplify the sound, but note that at 16:07 he directly addressed the influence of wood on the electrified sound by needing to use a dense, metal, railroad tie to defeat unwanted vibrations from wood that were influencing the sound audibly. Then skip to 1:12:40 where he discusses his experiments with using a 4x4 as a center block - while not quoted at that point in the video, the reason for these experiments were because of the woods influence on sustain, clarity and and his desire to amplify that so the guitar was audible in a band and defeat feedback problems of amplifying a hollow-body - demonstrating that both wood and construction does influence the sound audibly in an electrified guitar. His experiments were focused around using density of materials to defeat vibrations of the wood influencing the amplified sound, so based on his experiments, the degree of audible influence of various woods would have some correlation to the density of the wood that the string is anchored into.


See also:

Starting at paragraph 5:
https://rockhall.com/education/outs...an-music-masters-series/2008--les-paul/essay/

http://www.lespaulfoundation.org/blog/les-pauls-inventions-part-5/

Les Paul made credible innovations.
Les Paul, as has been the case with science down through the ages, was not in an age of total scientific enlightenment in the 1940's.
The predictable net result is you acknowledge the valid accomplishments as standing the test of time even if some of their other accomplishments, beliefs or methodologies do not. This is the case with essentially EVERY great scientist down through history, including Einstein (and I have no problem calling LP a scientist regardless of his formal background)

Its easy to lose track of this since we're in a totally unprecedented point in human history where in the last 100 or so years we've accelerated our progress in decades what used to take centuries or even millenia but consider what when he was making those 'tests', homes didn't have televisions.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Just page 4 alone appears to be littered with insults to other members. This is a direct violation of forum rules, and has been reported. While I'm not a moderator, the insults need to stop.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I am a moderator and beaubrummels is correct, this has to stop now. On all sides.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Insulting me or saying I have a garbage mind is not going to gain any respect Tonewoods.

Also, Frank Falbo is very respected around here. You are free to treat or respond to anybody as you wish but disrespecting him and others is no way to gain cred.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Its a fine line, going among people who 'believe' something untrue, enduring their pathetic fallacies and anti-scientific 'reasoning' for it all and resisting the urge to point out that they're at best uninformed, at worst, imbeciles.

But I'll continue to resist the temptation as best I can.
Since Evan here has expressed his own belief in Tonewood, though, I imagine a lot of what I say will be considered 'offensive' and since he's the one handing out infractions, I guess we all know how this ends for me ;)

Hallelujah and Amen.
 
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