A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Look, if you want to do some experimentation and mess around with different setups, that is one thing. If you want to actually scientifically KNOW anything when you are done, you have to use proper scientific methods. All (and this is the hard part... ALL) of the variables except the one you are asking the question about (body wood) have to be held constant (controlled). This means the bridge, the nut, the tuners, the strings, the scale length, the frets, neck material, body size, etc etc etc all have to be EXACTLY the same. Your pick stroke would also have to be exactly the same every time, and a human cannot do that.

You could conduct the test with cheaper wood like 2x4's, but when you are done you cannot say anything about GUITAR tonewood. You would only have scientific evidence about 2x4's. If you are not using a scientific instrument to measure the tonal difference, you would have to have a population of capable listeners and conduct a DOUBLE blind test of what they are hearing. How would they then quantify or qualify "difference"?

The concept is simple, carrying it out correctly is very hard.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Hahaha.

So your theory here is that if we put a guitarist in a room behind a cloth screen and another guitarist in another room all together with a longer cord ran into the same amp and A/B'd them, the one nearer the amp would have a 'different one' because of some circuitous relationship UNRELATED to signal feedback but related to vibrating ambient wood?

What makes the 'test' so difficult is overcoming all the specious horse**** that is inevitably presented as "... everyone knows".
I don't understand what you're even suggesting. What I'm saying is that if you plug in two different wood type guitars, the differences are more pronounced when playing with a loud amp, less apparent when quiet, or played direct into earbuds. The sound waves in the room make the guitar vibrate, plain and simple.

The part I'm saying about the player influence is separate. One player could pick up the Alder and Ash Strat and play them in such a way to highlight the differences.

This is why double blind testing with musical instruments is perhaps more deeply flawed than not. I could park you in a room with two black Strats and a bunch of amps and say "I'll be back in 8 hours tell me what you discover" I may return and you say that over 8 hours, you really can't tell what the difference is between the Alder and the Ash one. But then, maybe I could say "Here: plug THIS Tube Screamer into THAT Marshall with these knobs on 7, and start neck-pickup soloing around the 12th fret like THIS...you hear that?! You hear the difference in the way the note rings out?"

I honestly can't tell what your attitude is with me by the way your responding. You seem to be a new member but new or veteran, there's no possible way you could know all of the research I've performed in this field. Rest assured my positions are not speculative.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

In fact, they would have to be all three: of equal mass, size, AND shape. Hence the supposition that (otherwise) identical instruments constructed out of different (density) tonewoods will have different tonal response.

I don't know.. what if the different inherent densities of certain species are the CAUSE of the difference in tones? If the different wood species do not inherently have the exact same density, what can you do to even it up? Changing the mass (weight) or volume (size) of the body will change the density.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Everyone would agree that making one guitar body out of rubber, and the other out of marble would affect NOT ONLY the acoustic sound, but the plugged in sound as well.

As Tonewoods pointed out in the other thread, yes there would be a difference, but you could blame the lower structural rigidity of the rubber for any differences, rather than the acoustic properties of the rubber. Therefore you have to compare things that are equally sturdy, and that's a harder thing to magnify in your "mind's ear".

"But how is that possible if the pickup only hears magnetically?!" Because the material at either end of the string changes the way the string vibrates of course. So by narrowing the scope to Mahogany vs Alder for example, we already know there's a delta. Your ability to measure it is inconsequential.

How do we "know" there's a delta? Are you citing conventional wisdom, or something more specific and referenceable?

I agree there's no room for vitriol on this subject. But Drex is asking for our opinions in this thread about his proposed methodology for testing. People can make an argument about his methodology that is not favorable. That might not be what Drex wants to hear on the forum, but that's not a slag.

I have not seen any slags (at least not from the posts that are not auto-hidden). This thread is awesome, thank you all for helping me gather the information I've requested, although I'm still wanting to know if an ebow can replace a plucking device.

That being said, in my humble opinion and with all due respect, Drex is out of his depth. If one was prepared for this kind of endeavor, one can't question whether you can remove some or many of the conditions that make an electric guitar what it is. I really don't even know where to begin. If the test doesn't include the regular body size, a neck, strings, etc it's ignoring the driving mechanism. If it doesn't include multiple notes, chords, velocities, and picking locations, it ignores the musicians' influence over the delta.

I'd appreciate it if you could explain to me, and for posterity, why each and every one of those factors is necessary to answer the underlying question as to whether wood makes and audible or measurable difference, because it seems to me that those variable serve to obfuscate the contribution of the wood, not to isolate it. It's one thing to say a variable matters, it's another thing to spell out why.

You need frets. Regardless of how high the action is, with a hard pick attack the initial clank of the string against the fret tops produces (and dramatically alters) the high frequency content. You need to move up and down the fretboard. You may have to get to a barred A chord before hearing the most difference in one wood type, while a G chord magnifies another.

That's a good point, maybe the wood's variance is more pronounced by different frequencies, but it's possible to test various pitches.

In other words, I've seen musicians grab two different guitars and be able to play in such a way that they can say "see, this one doesn't do THAT as easily as the other one". The types of frequencies that are present in the decay of a note can dictate whether or not it decays pleasingly, stops bluntly, or slips into a controlled feedback loop.

The result of decay can be measured also. In the test someone references earlier, they were taking their samples 2 seconds after the pluck, which is well into the decay of the string pluck.

The other component you need is SPL. The electric guitar responds to moderate to loud amps. There's a biofeedback loop you aren't even mentioning. That's the WOOD vibrating in tandem. Of course that is different with Ash than it is with Alder. It's so simple yet we want to make it complicated.

I'd say that's outside of the problem domain, because for my part, I believe I've heard differences even at low volumes, and I've not seen it said that wood only made a noticeable difference when their amp was cranked up, or that the difference was proportionate to their amp's volume.

Drex I can't hold your hand through all of this, carry on if you must, and I'll try to help where I can. But at this point your very far away from yielding a meaningful result.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Isn't there already a modern electric guitar called the Teuffel Birdfish that has bars of wood that are exchangeable to alter the tone on the fly? Anyone explain that? I mean the strings and action and pickups and everything else would be literally identical as you are unscrewing and screwing back on different bars of wood that come with it to get different tones out of it. No need to slack the strings or move anything, just A and B, even easier than changing a pickup. Point of the design, if it didn't matter enough, why bother with the bars? Why bother shipping it with a set of alder and a set of maple to double up or mix and match? Why bother with the design if it DIDN'T change? Getting a hold of someone with one of these would finish the debate once and for all wouldn't it? They could even do a demonstration. Like this one you can download from their site with the HB3 with both the maple and the alder bars exchanged playing the same riff.

http://www.teuffel.com/english/sales/soundcheck.htm
3mbs go ahead and download so you can have a listen. Even under all the gain, I can notice a bit more of a scoop and more subdued low end to the maple, which isn't something I necessarily expected as I thought maple would make the notes sound more pronounced all around, but it actually surprised me and that is probably the best thing I can say about it when it comes to scientific results. There's even a guy on youtube who captured the wave forms and noted the different peaks.

Of course, nobody here will be convinced unless Robocop was the one playing the guitar and he went back in time so he could play it at the exact same time so the earth was in the same place in the universe and the humidity was just right while Neil Degrasse Tyson, Eddie Van Halen, Charles Xavier, and Jesus discuss it for weeks afterwards in an isolation chamber at the bottom of the sea by consistently erasing their own memories and rerecording themselves giving their opinions on it each time and then discussing those opinions until they reach a consensus on Groundhog day. That way they can see if the Groundhog sees his shadow; if he does that means 60 more years of debating this topic.

That's interesting, and it's too bad it took so long for this guitar to be brought up in the tonewood debate of the past few days. My only issue is that those pieces of wood are rather small, that might make a meaningful difference, also the differences don't appear to be as well documented as I'd like to do for my purposes. I'm not sure exactly how those pieces of wood attach to the rest of the guitar (I see a metal bar spanning the length of the guitar) and how this might differ from having the two end points of the string attach to a much larger piece of wood. All signs point to their being a difference, but I want to actually measure something.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Its a fine line, going among people who 'believe' something untrue, enduring their pathetic fallacies and anti-scientific 'reasoning' for it all and resisting the urge to point out that they're at best uninformed, at worst, imbeciles.

But I'll continue to resist the temptation as best I can.
Since Evan here has expressed his own belief in Tonewood, though, I imagine a lot of what I say will be considered 'offensive' and since he's the one handing out infractions, I guess we all know how this ends for me ;)

Hallelujah and Amen.

I'm well aware that on other less moderated internet forums theres a survival of the fittest mentality when it comes to rhetoric, like "he who berates the most wins", but this forum is closely moderated so you have to operate differently than you might be used to.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Since Evan here has expressed his own belief in Tonewood, though, I imagine a lot of what I say will be considered 'offensive' and since he's the one handing out infractions, I guess we all know how this ends for me ;)

As I explained in my PM to you Tonewoods, the reason you received an infraction is because you used insulting language toward another member and thereby violated the terms of service you agreed to when you registered here; not because you're advocating theories with which I don't agree.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

This could show difference in tonal qualities of the wood acoustically speaking, however the debate here is whether those different acoustic tones are captured by the pickup and transmitted through the amp and speakers and still be heard.

A transducer pickup costs only $10 and a sound exciter costs $20, so I ordered one of each just for the heck of it. I'm not sure how well they'll perform, that remains to be seen. They should be good enough to demonstrate a difference between two or more materials, though.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I had a bunch of things to say but then I thought, meh, who would really listen. I'm going back to the forum designed pickup threads.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Okay, the basic concept is simple. Start with a question, propose a theoretical answer, devise a test to see if that theory is true. If it holds up to testing then it is, if it doesn't, it's not.

The execution of this process however, is anything but simple. "Does wood make a difference in tone" may seem a deceptively simple question, but look closer to devise a test and it quickly cascades in to an incredibly complex series if questions and tests. Possible influences could potentially include:

Influence on primary signal (low volume transmission, resonance, reflection, and damping).
Influence on secondary signal (mid-high volume feedback resonance and transmission).
Resonant bar vibrations of the neck.
Resonant plate vibrations of the body.
Initial impedance at boundary points.
Cross-influence between strings at boundary points.
Vibrations induced in pickups through connection to chassis.
There's a few main concerns, but the list could go on much further.

Now to start you can take a shotgun approach, covering as wide a swath as possible. Gather all the reasonable range of influences in to the most (speculatively) divergent packages you can within reasonable scope of materials typically used. Hard maple neck and body against African mahogany neck and body would be a fair start. Identical hardware, identical pickups, etc, and the parts should all be CNC'd to identical specs (could be done with templates and careful measure, but would be easier and cheaper on a small scale test just to have them CNC'd).

Then comes the testing procedures. Both low volume and high volume tests would be needed for any meaningful results, ideally accompanied by the much more complicated blind tests of actual playing. First you must be digent about ensuring identical setups, from the string height, to pickup mounting and height, to the way the strings are wrapped on the tuners, and piles of other little details. Then you need a consistent drive mechanism. Mechanical picks may seem appealing, but in fac are quite difficult to ensure consistency. The more traditional lab approach for this type of testing is the wire pluck method. I typically use magnet wire from 38 up to 41 gauge, wrap it around a string at a marked point, and pull the ends wrapped over a rest to ensure consistent direction of drive. Fine magnet wire will break at a remarkably consistent force, and is capable of delivering a very consistent drive. This is a fairly consistent and proven method in industry research.

Still, in order to be sure your results are reliable you need to test your methods. This would include repeatedly tearing down and setting up a single test sample in the same manner you would with different test samples, to ensure you are able to get consistent results with no variables changed, and establish a range of errors. This is where testing gets quite interesting and at times frustrating, for no matter how perfect and consistent you think your controls are, there will always be a number of unexpected bugs to work out.

Then once methods are proven and error range established, testing can begin to look for meaningful differences. That's just one step though. To be worth doing you would also have to test at high volumes for influence from resonant feedback. This could be done in a controlled chamber with a signal generator (or any consistent signal) running at unaltered levels through an amp placed near the guitar. The metered signal could be taken directly from the pickups, or perhaps arranged in a way where natural sustained feedback is mic'd without use of a signal generator, though demonstrating consistency of this method would be much more challenging.

The guitar would have to have a reliable mounting stand, preferably with locator pins and shock mount suspension of some sort to both ensure consistent positioning and isolate it from the stand to a reasonable degree (a neck hanger with locators at strap button position could be a reasonable approach if designed well). Then this test layout again needs to be tested and refined to prove consistent response with the same materials and range of error established befor moving on to comparitive testing.

At this point there are two main possibilities - either there are notable differences detected, or there are not. If not, you can either call it done, or start over with further testing of different layouts and materials in search for a change that may have been missed. If a notable change is observed though, then you're just getting started. Now there are so many other areas to branch out in to.

First may be auditory testing - double blind listening tests to determine if these changes can be reliably identifies by average or trained listeners. This presents a whole slew of other challenges, such as devising ways in which the player can not know which sample they are demonstrating, which could mean not only painting them to opaque colors and consistent textures, but suspending the instruments on a mount while being played so that changes in weight could not be perceived. And of course there are issues of player consistency, player fatigue, listener fatigue, controlled listening environment - the more you know about this type of testing and all its potential interferences, the more complicated you realize it can be.

Of course so far we haven't even touched on whether our focus would be on factors of timbre or sustain, and how test methods would have to be configured differently and repeated to look at different factors. Then let's say after all of this you have found that differences between two particular wood samples can be detected both by controlled readings and auditory testing. What will you have accomplished at this point? Very little other than to show further testing may be warranted.

You won't have settled any internet spats, because people will still find reasons to disagree on the test methods ( no matter how bullet proof you make them) and the final impact on application in the field. More importantly, little data of use or interest will have been gained for professional use in the field.

To gain any data of practical value, these tests would have to be followed up with a much larger sampling size of other wood species and comparisons within like species. You would have to continue focused testing on influence of neck materials vs body materials, or whether changes may have more or less impact with different body/neck styles and configurations. Great value could be gained by looking in to what factors of the wood are of greatest significance or impact different factors. What degree of change is affected solely by density and mass, vs stiffness, elasticity, damping coefficient? These would be valuable things to know I you want your test results to actually have any usefulness in guiding decisions for builders and buyers (and even for technicians in troubleshooting).

And as long winded as this post may be, trust me that it is just the tip of the iceberg in executing reliable testing which would yield any meaningful or useful results. I have both a personal and professional interest in doing this sort of testing, but not enough to warrant much investment beyond a pet project. I also know enough about reliable testing standards to reckognize that if tests are simplified much beyond this, they would be fairly useless in my opinion.

I know some have different priorities in testing, and different standards for proclaiming a conclusion to be certain. I'm always interested in seeing what others can try and come up with, but if I can find too many holes in the methods and reasoning, I have a hard time finding much value gained from their efforts.

Reliable testing is often very hard, and the unshakable certainty some seem to hold (on either side) without such effort is not only unjustified, but I have to say a bit disturbing.

*please excuse any typos. I blame auto-correct, and I'm not going back to edit them all.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

...but you could blame the lower structural rigidity of the rubber for any differences, rather than the acoustic properties...
That's a fair point, the theory being that most/all solidbody woods are dense and stiff enough that they aren't having an impact on the plugged in sound. It's just not my experience, neither anecdotally nor experimentally.



How do we "know" there's a delta? Are you citing conventional wisdom, or something more specific and referenceable?
i just mean if you can prove there's a difference between highly varied examples like a Soft Pine vs a body made of solid Ebony, then we know there's a difference between more similar woods like Honduran vs African Mahogany, it's just the degree in question, and whether or not it matters in the real life experience of the musician.


I have not seen any slags (at least not from the posts that are not auto-hidden). This thread is awesome, thank you all for helping me gather the information I've requested, although I'm still wanting to know if an ebow can replace a plucking device.
Good I'm glad you feel that way. The ebow in my opinion only serves to lessen the differences. It completely destroys your ADSR qualities. If some wood responds differently to transients, and especially if it is more or less likely to sustain into feedback at certain pitches, you will have completely missed all of that with the ebow.



I'd appreciate it if you could explain to me, and for posterity, why each and every one of those factors is necessary to answer the underlying question as to whether wood makes and audible or measurable difference, because it seems to me that those variable serve to obfuscate the contribution of the wood, not to isolate it. It's one thing to say a variable matters, it's another thing to spell out why.
Honestly this is LITERALLY how I feed my children. I can't really go much into details because it is what people pay me to know. My knowledge is my currency. Moreover, if I REALLY started to spill everything I know onto a forum, I've just done harm to those I work for by transferring the research conclusions into the public domain.

...for my part, I believe I've heard differences even at low volumes, and I've not seen it said that wood only made a noticeable difference when their amp was cranked up, or that the difference was proportionate to their amp's volume.
True. I just mean that it is possible with test equipment that you would be unable to see something by plugging in directly, but it would be augmented enough under SPL that it could "move the needle" as we say.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I don't understand why you can't just buy four Strat bodies from the CNC maker of your choice, use the same neck (frets, tuners, etc.) the same (preferably hardtail) bridge, and the same Pickguard (output jack in the Pickguard). Record the measurements for relief, string height and pickup height, then record the results played through the same signal chain?

Since everything isn't perfectly controlled, you'll have detractors no matter what the results? If the results are minuscule enough not to notice, then it doesn't matter, if they are big enough to notice, then it does matter. This is rock and roll, right?

Shoot, the best test in my mind would be a skinny little 2x4 of ash and a monster plank of mahogany. Exaggerate the differences in wood as much as possible, with everything else being equal. But I guess my perspective comes from asking "does it make a difference" not "what is making what difference".

Anyway, entertaining and if anything interesting comes from it (and interesting doesn't have to be double-blind, perfectly executed experiment) I'll be happy. :)
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I don't understand why you can't just buy four Strat bodies from the CNC maker of your choice, use the same neck (frets, tuners, etc.) the same (preferably hardtail) bridge, and the same Pickguard (output jack in the Pickguard). Record the measurements for relief, string height and pickup height, then record the results played through the same signal chain?

Since everything isn't perfectly controlled, you'll have detractors no matter what the results? If the results are minuscule enough not to notice, then it doesn't matter, if they are big enough to notice, then it does matter.

Correct.
Blinded.
Decent sample size.

If you want to use two body materials, guesswork gets half right.

Per the tonewood narrative, they should get the overwhelming majority correct since everyone knows what a big difference (species) makes compared to (species).

If I said you couldn't taste the difference between an apple and a banana, do we need to account for the height of the tree the fruits were grown on, to ensure they were grown in identical climactic means, to ensure they were of a precise shape and size, to ensure that they originated from particular countries, to ensure that they traveled on boats only using wind power... Because this is the rabbit-hole tonewood believers instantly revert to when their 'ANYONE WHO KNOWS BASIC NEWTONIAN SCIENCE KNOWS ITS SO OBVIOUS I CAN HEAR IT" is challenged with a "LOL. Wanna bet?"
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

The execution of this process however, is anything but simple. "Does wood make a difference in tone" may seem a deceptively simple question, but look closer to devise a test and it quickly cascades in to an incredibly complex series if questions and tests.

"Does wood make a theoretical difference in tone" might be a bit labor intensive.

"Does wood make a difference that people can hear" is really the question, and answering that is dead simple yet exactly what people who claim to hear tonewood always avoid tackling, reverting to theoretical principles which are a lot more vague than what they themselves so boldly claim.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Before this thread gets closed or outright deleted, I would like to let my children know that I love them even if their body wood doesn't influence how they sound.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

As I explained in my PM to you Tonewoods, the reason you received an infraction is because you used insulting language toward another member and thereby violated the terms of service you agreed to when you registered here; not because you're advocating theories with which I don't agree.

I'm not advancing 'theories'.
I am advancing science. I'm also among those willing to bet I'm right (and you're wrong) using the same controls science uses to demonstrate the efficacy of anything.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

"I want to conduct a scientific study, but I don't want to employ the basic tenets of science."--DreX (paraphrased)

If you do not control the extraneous variables, then you are not engaging in scientific study. The more confounding variables, the less reliable the results.

When you have multiple (in this case dozens) of independent variables, your control of the dependent variable becomes nonexistent. Then you introduce multiple additional variables with your proposed recording method(s).

Tonewoods: "You people don't understand science."

That is the battle cry of folks with no formal training in the field to convince others (many of whom actually have training) of your superiority.

If only we had a graph to explain all of this. No, wait...Here is one with the aforementioned variables:

images


Here is more important data on this topic:
random-graph.jpg
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

"Some guy on uT00B said it's so, and that settles it!"
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Tonewood, I'm sure you believe you are advancing science, but at the same time fail to recognize in how many ways you are violating the basic scientific principles of evidence-based conclusions based on sound testing procedures. I have no problem with people leaning toward one conclusion or another, but without sufficient testing and evidence I would suggest that your certainty in your conclusions is not reasonably justified.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Tonewoods: "You people don't understand science."

That is the battle cry of folks with no formal training in the field to convince others (many of whom actually have training) of your superiority.

Is your position that I am the one with no formal training and the people in this thread have superior formal training?
 
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