A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Tonewood, I'm sure you believe you are advancing science, but at the same time fail to recognize in how many ways you are violating the basic scientific principles of evidence-based conclusions based on sound testing procedures. I have no problem with people leaning toward one conclusion or another, but without sufficient testing and evidence I would suggest that your certainty in your conclusions is not reasonably justified.

Lots of double-talk there.
I am advancing the scientific principle known as efficacy. Since I'm debating against a bunch of eScientists, I'll save you the "Google-And-Pretend-To-Know" routine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy

In this case, the claim is made that wood causes the effect of 'one being able to hear species in wood tone'.
The objective is to test the efficacy of that. Since the efficacy factor relies on perception, the test is of perception.

Please, spare me the broscience or eScientist gibber. If only all the people who are pretending to stand up for scientific rigor comprehended how inarguable most of this stuff is and how absurd they look by taking they position they do, in this particular context... but they don't.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I'm not advancing 'theories'.
I am advancing science. I'm also among those willing to bet I'm right (and you're wrong) using the same controls science uses to demonstrate the efficacy of anything.

But that's what science does. It advances theories and then tests them. Ultimately, if sufficient results are gathered to support the theory, it will be peer reviewed and published in an appropriate scientific journal. Only then will it be considered 'proven'. That is what I understand to be science.

You tell us that you are "advancing science" - please show it to us, because otherwise you are only offering us more unsubstantiated theories, something that it would seem you are accusing others of doing.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

discussion is fine and a wonderful thing. please keep it civil.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Lots of double-talk there.
I am advancing the scientific principle known as efficacy. Since I'm debating against a bunch of eScientists, I'll save you the "Google-And-Pretend-To-Know" routine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy

In this case, the claim is made that wood causes the effect of 'one being able to hear species in wood tone'.
The objective is to test the efficacy of that. Since the efficacy factor relies on perception, the test is of perception.

Please, spare me the broscience or eScientist gibber. If only all the people who are pretending to stand up for scientific rigor comprehended how inarguable most of this stuff is and how absurd they look by taking they position they do, in this particular context... but they don't.

Right. I have no interest in trying to maintain a reasonable discussion with someone displaying such juvenile behavior traits, seeming to believe they understand far more than they truly do, and defensively attempting to diminish (and grossly underestimating) the knowledge and experience of those presenting arguments contrary to their position.
 
Last edited:
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

discussion is fine and a wonderful thing. please keep it civil.

I'm afraid there are too many Mason-jar-sized man-marbles swingin' around for that. Best just to go across the street and watch it burn from a safe distance.

Enjoy the arrogance, sly insults, and verbal slap fights.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Okay, the basic concept is simple. Start with a question, propose a theoretical answer, devise a test to see if that theory is true. If it holds up to testing then it is, if it doesn't, it's not.

The execution of this process however, is anything but simple. "Does wood make a difference in tone" may seem a deceptively simple question, but look closer to devise a test and it quickly cascades in to an incredibly complex series if questions and tests. Possible influences could potentially include:

Influence on primary signal (low volume transmission, resonance, reflection, and damping).
Influence on secondary signal (mid-high volume feedback resonance and transmission).
Resonant bar vibrations of the neck.
Resonant plate vibrations of the body.
Initial impedance at boundary points.
Cross-influence between strings at boundary points.
Vibrations induced in pickups through connection to chassis.
There's a few main concerns, but the list could go on much further.

Now to start you can take a shotgun approach, covering as wide a swath as possible. Gather all the reasonable range of influences in to the most (speculatively) divergent packages you can within reasonable scope of materials typically used. Hard maple neck and body against African mahogany neck and body would be a fair start. Identical hardware, identical pickups, etc, and the parts should all be CNC'd to identical specs (could be done with templates and careful measure, but would be easier and cheaper on a small scale test just to have them CNC'd).

Then comes the testing procedures. Both low volume and high volume tests would be needed for any meaningful results, ideally accompanied by the much more complicated blind tests of actual playing. First you must be digent about ensuring identical setups, from the string height, to pickup mounting and height, to the way the strings are wrapped on the tuners, and piles of other little details. Then you need a consistent drive mechanism. Mechanical picks may seem appealing, but in fac are quite difficult to ensure consistency. The more traditional lab approach for this type of testing is the wire pluck method. I typically use magnet wire from 38 up to 41 gauge, wrap it around a string at a marked point, and pull the ends wrapped over a rest to ensure consistent direction of drive. Fine magnet wire will break at a remarkably consistent force, and is capable of delivering a very consistent drive. This is a fairly consistent and proven method in industry research.

Still, in order to be sure your results are reliable you need to test your methods. This would include repeatedly tearing down and setting up a single test sample in the same manner you would with different test samples, to ensure you are able to get consistent results with no variables changed, and establish a range of errors. This is where testing gets quite interesting and at times frustrating, for no matter how perfect and consistent you think your controls are, there will always be a number of unexpected bugs to work out.

Then once methods are proven and error range established, testing can begin to look for meaningful differences. That's just one step though. To be worth doing you would also have to test at high volumes for influence from resonant feedback. This could be done in a controlled chamber with a signal generator (or any consistent signal) running at unaltered levels through an amp placed near the guitar. The metered signal could be taken directly from the pickups, or perhaps arranged in a way where natural sustained feedback is mic'd without use of a signal generator, though demonstrating consistency of this method would be much more challenging.

The guitar would have to have a reliable mounting stand, preferably with locator pins and shock mount suspension of some sort to both ensure consistent positioning and isolate it from the stand to a reasonable degree (a neck hanger with locators at strap button position could be a reasonable approach if designed well). Then this test layout again needs to be tested and refined to prove consistent response with the same materials and range of error established befor moving on to comparitive testing.

At this point there are two main possibilities - either there are notable differences detected, or there are not. If not, you can either call it done, or start over with further testing of different layouts and materials in search for a change that may have been missed. If a notable change is observed though, then you're just getting started. Now there are so many other areas to branch out in to.

First may be auditory testing - double blind listening tests to determine if these changes can be reliably identifies by average or trained listeners. This presents a whole slew of other challenges, such as devising ways in which the player can not know which sample they are demonstrating, which could mean not only painting them to opaque colors and consistent textures, but suspending the instruments on a mount while being played so that changes in weight could not be perceived. And of course there are issues of player consistency, player fatigue, listener fatigue, controlled listening environment - the more you know about this type of testing and all its potential interferences, the more complicated you realize it can be.

Of course so far we haven't even touched on whether our focus would be on factors of timbre or sustain, and how test methods would have to be configured differently and repeated to look at different factors. Then let's say after all of this you have found that differences between two particular wood samples can be detected both by controlled readings and auditory testing. What will you have accomplished at this point? Very little other than to show further testing may be warranted.

You won't have settled any internet spats, because people will still find reasons to disagree on the test methods ( no matter how bullet proof you make them) and the final impact on application in the field. More importantly, little data of use or interest will have been gained for professional use in the field.

To gain any data of practical value, these tests would have to be followed up with a much larger sampling size of other wood species and comparisons within like species. You would have to continue focused testing on influence of neck materials vs body materials, or whether changes may have more or less impact with different body/neck styles and configurations. Great value could be gained by looking in to what factors of the wood are of greatest significance or impact different factors. What degree of change is affected solely by density and mass, vs stiffness, elasticity, damping coefficient? These would be valuable things to know I you want your test results to actually have any usefulness in guiding decisions for builders and buyers (and even for technicians in troubleshooting).

And as long winded as this post may be, trust me that it is just the tip of the iceberg in executing reliable testing which would yield any meaningful or useful results. I have both a personal and professional interest in doing this sort of testing, but not enough to warrant much investment beyond a pet project. I also know enough about reliable testing standards to reckognize that if tests are simplified much beyond this, they would be fairly useless in my opinion.

I know some have different priorities in testing, and different standards for proclaiming a conclusion to be certain. I'm always interested in seeing what others can try and come up with, but if I can find too many holes in the methods and reasoning, I have a hard time finding much value gained from their efforts.

Reliable testing is often very hard, and the unshakable certainty some seem to hold (on either side) without such effort is not only unjustified, but I have to say a bit disturbing.

*please excuse any typos. I blame auto-correct, and I'm not going back to edit them all.

It seems you're over-complicating the issue by a lot. If I phrase the question like this

"in a system containing a length of wood, two anchor points and a steel string between them under tension, do the oscillation characteristics of the excited string vary depending on the type, or the specific piece of wood used?"

then suddenly it doesn't matter if the wood is guitar shaped or not, whether there are frets attached, etc. and the degree to which this simple system differs meaningfully from a functional guitar becomes a secondary question, independent of the first.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

discussion is fine and a wonderful thing. please keep it civil.

I completely agree, Jeremy. I wouldn't hold my breath though. Unfortunately, some people can't agree to disagree.

One question I have is this: I understand that for those who do not believe tone-wood makes a difference they are going to need something concrete to prove that they are wrong. If they don't hear a difference they, don't hear a difference. Now personally, I don't care whether anyone belives it or not and I encourage everyone to formulate their own opinion.

Here what I think is downright silly. Saying that there has to be a scientific study proving it means you won't believe it and that all personal experience is un-trustable is nonsense. This isn't some academic text we're typing up here! Furthermore, I don't need to call Stanford University to know that eating at Carl's Jr. will make me stomach-sick. My "anecdotal evidence" that I have the runs every time I've eaten there is enough for me. I guess some "scientific" types here would say I am being ridiculous and using untrustworthy data.

Furthermore, there is no scientific study showing I can't walk through a wall. Should I try it then? If I fail and end up with a bloody nose should I disregard that data as anecdotal and false?

I think some people in threads like this feel they are smarter than everyone else and do to a lack of self-esteem need to validate themselves by telling everyone else how smart THEY are and how stupid the rest of us are for thinking differently than them.
 
Last edited:
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

It seems you're over-complicating the issue by a lot. If I phrase the question like this

"in a system containing a length of wood, two anchor points and a steel string between them under tension, do the oscillation characteristics of the excited string vary depending on the type, or the specific piece of wood used?"

then suddenly it doesn't matter if the wood is guitar shaped or not, whether there are frets attached, etc. and the degree to which this simple system differs meaningfully from a functional guitar becomes a secondary question, independent of the first.

Easy enough, DreX. Time to just make a few Diddley Bows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diddley_bow). The only thing to figure out is how to consistently excite the string across the different instruments so you isolate the effect of the woods, and what method to use to measure the differences.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

A man convinced against his will Is of the same opinion still. :sleeping:
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

You tell us that you are "advancing science" - please show it to us, because otherwise you are only offering us more unsubstantiated theories, something that it would seem you are accusing others of doing.

Sure.

I understand how electromagnetic pickups work, how amps work and I have a fairly good comprehension of how guitars work. Nothing groundbreaking. I am interested in the same routine and inarguable stuff a lot of people understand and agree on, including some people in this thread. Vocationally, I have a background in the sciences.

From this point, the long-standing guitar superstition of being able to 'hear wood' in an electric signal made no sense. Per my own basic observations, it seemed to be untrue. As a kid I believed it to be true because my guitar teacher talked about woods and sustain and he was an authority figure but the more I learned of science and life and people, the less the "I can hear (insert wood here)" seemed to hold water, insofar as in an electric guitar and distinguishing different species... Another thing I also know to be true (that gets you called 'arrogant' but is nevertheless true) is that there's a huge chunk of humanity that does not operate rationally. They 'believe' things, they have no clue how to even approach arriving at a valid answer. From politics to religion to marketing, smaller groups of smarter people exploiting the much larger group of 'average and below' types has been ongoing since we started walking upright.

From this vantage, I inquire into the tonewood world and instantly recognize an intellectual ****show.

Group A) Dumb people appealing to the authority of people they perceive to be less dumb.
"If Steve Vai believes it its good enough for me!"
"WELL IF IT AINT MAKE NO DIFFERENCE THEN WHY AINT GIBSON MAKE LES PAULS OUTTA PLYWOOD!" This one is particularly stupid since it betrays an almost astonishing ignorance of the role marketing plays in anything, but these are "Group A's" were talking about here. The bottom of the barrel. Arrogance or not, they're dumber than baboons.

Group B) On the next rung up, we find people who maintain the 'belief' and try to reconcile it with something at least appearing to be objectively credible. Broscience. While you're not likely to find any Nobel Prize winners in this group, at least they realize the difference between substantive and substanceless. Its just that they aren't quite 'there' when it comes to understanding science, so an unblinded A/B test with no variable control is totally persuasive to them. They make abstract assertions of Newton or say "electro mechanical reproduction" in a vain attempt to associate their narrative with something scientifically credible, but ultimately, its not. This group is often cited by Group A, thus creating the Tonewood Believers Quorum.

Group C) The highest iteration of a 'tonewood believer' seems to be the agnostic who understands bull**** when he sees it (ie, he knows that Gibson isn't selling guitars in a scientific meritocracy), he intuitively understands that science demands more than belief or parlor-trick demonstrations but perhaps he thinks that there just has to be something to it, since there are seemingly credible elements (the acoustic properties of solid body electric guitars sounding different) to suggest there's more.

Group D) Instrument manufacturers.

When I advocate for science, I am not claiming to have done a 3 year study with 1000 control samples and 1000 pairs of ears.
When I say I am advocating for science, I am simply pointing out that the most commonly pro electric tonewood narrative is non scientific in every form it takes.
 
Last edited:
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

then suddenly it doesn't matter if the wood is guitar shaped or not, whether there are frets attached, etc. and the degree to which this simple system differs meaningfully from a functional guitar becomes a secondary question, independent of the first.

It's an independent question, alright, but I'm not convinced that it's secondary. If we want to prove whether people can really hear the difference between two guitars made from different woods (or other materials), I don't think substituting anything made of wood with a string on it is going to get us there.

It might be an interesting experiment, and we could probably learn from it, but taking the results of that test and assuming they apply to a practical, viable guitar still leaves room for doubt, at least to me. How reasonable a doubt that is, we may not agree on, but I think the idea is to satisfy people on both sides that the results are valid for normal guitars like we all play.

To put it another way, the experiment has to be designed in such a way that even the dumb people who disagree with you will know they've lost. (And yes, Tongue and Cheek are buddy-buddy here. Or are they?)
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Hey, Tonewood! Why do you give a damn about straightening everyone out? What's with the boner for advancing science on a forum of electric-guitar-pickup-nerds? Wouldn't this be more welcome on a board that is interested in advancing science as well?

Wait, I know why. Because you are insecure and have a huge ego, so this is how you validate yourself. By saying everyone else is stupid but you! Why don't you have a discussion with people instead of doing this -> :soapbox:
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Ah yes, there was that time once, wasn't there...

Good try, but I respond better to people who are arrogant pricks. Do you think you could manage that?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

if you can prove there's a difference between highly varied examples like a Soft Pine vs a body made of solid Ebony, then we know there's a difference between more similar woods like Honduran vs African Mahogany, it's just the degree in question, and whether or not it matters in the real life experience of the musician.

True, I'm not sure what wood samples I'll be able to find, but the more varied the better. I think it would also be cool to see what happens with wood plastic composite, particle board, or even OSB, but I don't have a planer, so getting a variety of woods that are the same size and shape is the trick.

Someone mentioned that it be necessary that the woods all be of the same density, I'm not sure that matters for this test, because for example, when you buy an ash or an alder Strat, all that's being promised in that case is that you're getting a guitar made from of a particular species of wood, no claims are made that they will be of the same weight or density or moisture content, etc. as another Strat. That the two pieces of wood are not the same piece of wood, is the minimum requirement.

Good I'm glad you feel that way. The ebow in my opinion only serves to lessen the differences. It completely destroys your ADSR qualities. If some wood responds differently to transients, and especially if it is more or less likely to sustain into feedback at certain pitches, you will have completely missed all of that with the ebow.

I was thinking I could let the ebow bring the string to full oscillation, cut the power (not lift it away) and then analyze everything that follows. That would remove the attack influence, but more importantly, remove the attack variance.

Honestly this is LITERALLY how I feed my children. I can't really go much into details because it is what people pay me to know. My knowledge is my currency. Moreover, if I REALLY started to spill everything I know onto a forum, I've just done harm to those I work for by transferring the research conclusions into the public domain.

Imagine a salesman comes along and says their special hair ointment makes hair grow faster, longer and healthier, and you ask them "how?", and they say "that's proprietary information, you'll have to prove it works by trying it!" how confident would you be in that salesman?

True. I just mean that it is possible with test equipment that you would be unable to see something by plugging in directly, but it would be augmented enough under SPL that it could "move the needle" as we say.

I will have an audio exciter on hand, so I can try inducing direct feedback and see what comes of it.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

What's the over/under on whether Tonewoods will keep using insults instead of science in this argument? "Dumber than baboons"
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Imagine a salesman comes along and says their special hair ointment makes hair grow faster, longer and healthier, and you ask them "how?", and they say "that's proprietary information, you'll have to prove it works by trying it!" how confident would you be in that salesman?

To be fair, that's exactly how advertising works for most hair care products. Try watching one or two and see how many pseudo-scientific terms they use, also looks at the sizes of the tests samples they refer to. Yet we still go out and buy the stuff by the truck load.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Furthermore, there is no scientific study showing I can't walk through a wall. Should I try it then? If I fail and end up with a bloody nose should I disregard that data as anecdotal and false?

What we have here are a group of people who claim they can walk through walls, versus a group of people who claim they cannot walk through walls.

Science validates the fact you cannot walk through a wall (via all manner of principles) and the matter itself is intuitive enough that anyone can understand it even if they don't understand much about science. The question here isn't whether or not you can walk through a wall. The question here is whether or not you can wear a blindfold and using your hands alone, feel the bricks of the wall and using sense of touch alone, determine what temperature they were baked at and in turn, assume that it results in a performance difference (lets say, stronger bricks) that you can 'perceive' by feeling them.

To determine this, we don't need to dive headlong into a rigorous testing of all known bricks with every imagined variable controlled for.
We only need to test your ability to perceive what you claim using bricks of a known variety.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top