A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I think we have a bigger question at hand - which one of you gave a "Tonewoods" post a 'Like'?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

What we have here are a group of people who claim they can walk through walls, versus a group of people who claim they cannot walk through walls.

Science validates the fact you cannot walk through a wall and the matter itself is intuitive enough that anyone can understand it, even if they don't understand much about science. The question here isn't whether or not you can walk through a wall. The question here is whether or not you can wear a blindfold and using your hands alone, feel the bricks of the wall and determine what temperature they were baked at and in turn, assume that the matter results in a performance difference (lets say, stronger bricks) that you can 'perceive' by feeling bricks.

Obviously you have never studied quantum physics. Science has not validated someone cannot walk through walls.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

From this point, the long-standing guitar superstition of being able to 'hear wood' in an electric signal made no sense.

Your premise that you are using to insult and spew hate at other forum members here is incorrect to start with. The assertion is not that you can hear wood through the pickup. The assertion is that the body wood, neck and all the materials in the construction influence vibration characteristics of the string that the pickup turns into a signal, and those influences are perceptible when the sound is reproduced.

For example, a more dense body material might allow a string to sustain longer with a wider frequency response while a less dense body wood might dampen the string vibration to a degree that is perceptible as part of the tone when translated into a signal by the pickup. The question is how much influence the various components and materials exert on the string vibration and to what degree each is perceptible. It's not superstition, it's a perfectly valid hypothesis, formed because numerous people noticed these differences.

Also, you need to be aware that a fair number of the people you've been insulting on this forum are guitar luthiers, as well as inventors who have conducted extensive research and contributed significant innovations in the evolution of guitars, as well as long-time industry professionals. I don't know what your credentials are that you feel gives you the authority to talk this way to others, but you could at least show common decency and respect; and perhaps an introduction - what exactly do you do for a living in music or any industry that makes your scientific position so defensible to the exclusion of all others?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I think we have a bigger question at hand - which one of you gave a "Tonewoods" post a 'Like'?

I dunno, man. I've given Drex quite a few 'Like's; he's been pretty focused on the science and has had some good posts.
Every sign of us keeping our personal agendas in check and trying to get at the truth is encouraging.
For example, I like "guitar woods" and think they're cool. It would be nice if there were something to the lore about what various types of woods sound like. You know, all science-y like. But a bunch of us hanging out here and shooting spitballs at each other isn't going to establish much in the way of facts, either way.

Do you guys have any paper left? I'm out of spitballs.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Obviously you have never studied quantum physics. Science has not validated someone cannot walk through walls.

THAT IS 100% CORRECT! While unlikely, it is stated that it is possible for all of the particles to line up just right that one object can pass right through another. The odds that this will occur are mind-bogglingly low, but scientific theory has shown it is possible.

If you're advancing science, Tonewood, it's clear you have a very poor grasp of it. your example of the bricks is way off base. Here's something simple that I hope you can grasp. Sound waves require matter to pass through (hence the tag line for the movie Alien, "In space no one can hear you scream"). Science has shown that when passing through one form of matter or another, a sound wave is affected. So sound passing through one type of material, say mahogany, or another, let's say for argument's sake lucite, will be affected. The REAL question we should be asking is whether or not this is perceptible by humans and if so, how much of a difference is occurring.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Your premise that you are using to insult and spew hate at other forum members here is incorrect to start with. The assertion is not that you can hear wood through the pickup. The assertion is that the body wood, neck and all the materials in the construction influence vibration characteristics of the string that the pickup turns into a signal, and those influences are perceptible when the sound is reproduced.

For example, a more dense body material might allow a string to sustain longer with a wider frequency response while a less dense body wood might dampen the string vibration to a degree that is perceptible as part of the tone when translated into a signal by the pickup. The question is how much influence the various components and materials exert on the string vibration and to what degree each is perceptible. It's not superstition, it's a perfectly valid hypothesis, formed because numerous people noticed these differences.

Also, you need to be aware that a fair number of the people you've been insulting on this forum are guitar luthiers, as well as inventors who have conducted extensive research and contributed significant innovations in the evolution of guitars, as well as long-time industry professionals. I don't know what your credentials are that you feel gives you the authority to talk this way to others, but you could at least show common decency and respect; and perhaps an introduction - what exactly do you do for a living in music or any industry that makes your scientific position so defensible to the exclusion of all others?

It gets old arguing against specious narratives after a while, which is why the most natural conclusion of any "YES I CAN NO YOU CAN'T YES I CAN NO YOU CAN'T" standoff is with stakes and a wager.

You claim you can hear it? Great! Lets get some samples, set up a blind test and put that to the test.

BUH... BUT... WELL.... SEE.... TEMPERATURE AND BLOOD PRESSURE PLAY A ROLE IN WHAT YOU THEORETICALLY HEAR.
AND FRETS! THE FRET SIZES MUST BE NORMALIZED DOWN TO AT LEAST A HUNDRED THOUSANDTH TO BE SURE THAT THEY AREN'T INTERFERING!
AND WHAT IF THE WOOD COMES FROM DIFFERENT LOGS! DIFFERENT CUTS OF WOOD WILL SOUND DIFFERENT!
AND ATTACK! SEE, PLAYING IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY CHANGES IT, TOO!

I'd say the quickest way to derive an argument AGAINST the typical tonewood narrative is to simply challenge any tonewood believer to a blind test and watch him either argue that blinding itself is the 'wrong way' to determine efficacy (thus arguing against all known scientific rigor and discrediting his insight) or watching him instantly abandon ship on his claims of what can be heard and change premises, that really, a fret that is +/- 0.002 varied from another can throw the whole thing off, thus discrediting everything he said about being able to hear electro-wood as a reliable variable.

Luthiers aren't scientists. They're woodworkers.
I have a cousin who owns a plant nursery. Think he can explain 'the science' of every plant he sells?
Yes, you probably would. Change your thinking. You don't strike me as a 'Category A'.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

It gets old arguing against specious narratives after a while, which is why the most natural conclusion of any "YES I CAN NO YOU CAN'T YES I CAN NO YOU CAN'T" standoff is with stakes and a wager.

You claim you can hear it? Great! Lets get some samples, set up a blind test and put that to the test.

BUH... BUT... WELL.... SEE.... TEMPERATURE AND BLOOD PRESSURE PLAY A ROLE IN WHAT YOU THEORETICALLY HEAR.
AND FRETS! THE FRET SIZES MUST BE NORMALIZED DOWN TO AT LEAST A HUNDRED THOUSANDTH TO BE SURE THAT THEY AREN'T INTERFERING!
AND WHAT IF THE WOOD COMES FROM DIFFERENT LOGS! DIFFERENT CUTS OF WOOD WILL SOUND DIFFERENT!
AND ATTACK! SEE, PLAYING IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY CHANGES IT, TOO!

I'd say the quickest way to derive an argument AGAINST the typical tonewood narrative is to simply challenge any tonewood believer to a blind test and watch him either argue that blinding itself is the 'wrong way' to determine efficacy (thus arguing against all known scientific rigor and discrediting his insight) or watching him instantly abandon ship on his claims of what can be heard and change premises, that really, a fret that is +/- 0.002 varied from another can throw the whole thing off, thus discrediting everything he said about being able to hear it as a reliable variable.

Luthiers aren't scientists. They're woodworkers.

Please reread my post. At no time did I claim what I hear or take a position. And you have yet to answer my question.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

If you're advancing science, Tonewood, it's clear you have a very poor grasp of it.

Tell ya what.
As a side-bet, I propose you and I make a $1000 wager.
I will escrow a sum of money with the Admin here, in advance. You do the same once my $1K is secured.
We go to someplace like Reddit/Science and have a random member assemble 40 'science' questions they would consider to be college level.
On Skype, we each answer our 20 questions in real time.
Winner takes the $1K.

Since I have a 'poor grasp' of Science, this is easy money for you. Sound like a plan?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I'd say the quickest way to derive an argument AGAINST the typical tonewood narrative is to simply challenge any tonewood believer to a blind test and watch him either argue that blinding itself is the 'wrong way' to determine efficacy (thus arguing against all known scientific rigor and discrediting his insight) or watching him instantly abandon ship on his claims of what can be heard and change premises, that really, a fret that is +/- 0.002 varied from another can throw the whole thing off, thus discrediting everything he said about being able to hear electro-wood as a reliable variable.

What would you say to someone who responded that he'd rather sit down and play guitars blindfolded, or build a couple of guitars (probably not blindfolded) with you, than argue over a web forum?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

What would you say to someone who responded that he'd rather sit down and play guitars blindfolded, or build a couple of guitars (probably not blindfolded) with you, than argue over a web forum?

I'd say rock on, but the discussion is pretty broad and demonstrating things conclusively, under correct terms, is a question that is begging for an answer. A couple guys with two guitars and a case of beer isn't going to yield valid insight.
 
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Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I'd say rock on, but probably not constructive input for a discussion about electric tonewood.

Not even if the goal is an experiment that would shut this Chuck E. Cheese down?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I see. So an auto mechanic has a hands-on understanding of metallurgy?
I can go to the Boeing plant, grab a few welders and have them do a shear force calculation?

Seriously; at what point is calling a spade a spade NOT an insult when it comes to people like you?

Again, real classy.

I stand by what I said because I know luthiers and have seen what they have to study to get their certification. I assure you they are not out whackin' it in Hank Hill's tool shed.

You like to take everything to the extreme and throw insults around at people who question you.

I am not intimidated.

care to answer the quantum physics question yet?
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Tonewoods, would you mind making your own thread? There's no rule that says you have to stay on topic, but I was hoping this thread would be about scrutinizing the particulars of a tone wood test, not scrutinizing "tone wood believers", and I don't want this thread to get locked as a result.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

@ Pigbacon, I edited to make the post a bit more clear, but it wouldn't really be a valid test no more than the Rob Chapman 'tonewood' video is.

If we race a Honda against a Mitsubishi and the Honda wins, does that prove conclusively that Hondas are faster than Mitsibushis?
Or do the variables matter? What make, model and year? What engine? What mods? What fuel? What tires?

Variable control matters to a point, but there comes a point when variables of decreasing relevance do not matter.
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Tonewoods, would you mind making your own thread? There's no rule that says you have to stay on topic, but I was hoping this thread would be about scrutinizing the particulars of a tone wood test, not scrutinizing "tone wood believers", and I don't want this thread to get locked as a result.

No worries, I'll just bow out and let the thread right itself.

Last word up for grabs for every believer who wishes to take it, say something dumb and proclaim themselves the victor ;)
 
Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Luthiers aren't scientists.

Neither are engineers.

(Edit: That was not an attempt to get the last word; I was just making an observation.)
 
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