A question about Rails humbuckers....

[Mincer]

According to this article, SD reserves rail designs for high-output pickups only. And among humbuckers, there are the thinner rails and the thicker bar rails. Could a vintage-sounding/ vintage output pickup be designed using rails, or are there limitations in place due to the geometry of the bobbins?
I'd love the idea of a Rails-based pickup that sounds like vintage humbucker. But that might not be possible.

 

[Seashore]

Check out The Creamery. It's a one man shop in the UK and he has a couple humbucker-sized single-rail designs as well as a custom wind option for his double-rail humbucker.

 

[GuitarStv]

Well . . . SD makes the vintage rails, which does a decent imitation of a single coil pickup. I'm pretty sure they could do a fatter version of the vintage rails if there was demand. My suspicion is that most of the people who are interested in weird looking pickup designs are less interested in vintage output, which is why they haven't done it.

 

[Securb]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the BL L500R and L500C vintage, while the 500XL was the modern or metal pickup?

 

[freefrog]

Google "Super'Tron"...

 

[Artie]

Well . . . SD makes the vintage rails, which does a decent imitation of a single coil pickup. I'm pretty sure they could do a fatter version of the vintage rails if there was demand.

Exactly. The Vintage Rails is the great unsung hero of the Duncan line. Sweet, Strat-ish, noiseless. I love 'em.

And the Cool Rails could be said to be the "fatter" version. I love them too.

 

[Mincer]

Exactly. The Vintage Rails is the great unsung hero of the Duncan line. Sweet, Strat-ish, noiseless. I love 'em.

And the Cool Rails could be said to be the "fatter" version. I love them too.

Sure, I've seen it with the little humbuckers, but regular size Rails humbuckers are exclusively high output. I was just wondering if there is an electronic or physics reason why we don't see one voiced like an Antiquity humbucker. I get that demand isn't there- people who generally love traditional humbuckers would have a stroke if it looked like a JB Rails- but hey, I'd order one through the Custom Shop if it could be done.

 

[Seashore]

Sure, I've seen it with the little humbuckers, but regular size Rails humbuckers are exclusively high output. I was just wondering if there is an electronic or physics reason why we don't see one voiced like an Antiquity humbucker. I get that demand isn't there- people who generally love traditional humbuckers would have a stroke if it looked like a JB Rails- but hey, I'd order one through the Custom Shop if it could be done.

Really, check out that Creamery site. He makes sets of double rail humbuckers with any grade of alnico starting in the low 7k range, specifically for vintage sounds. I haven't gotten to try his stuff but I have heard good things.

 

[JamesPaul]

I took one Electromagnetics course, but the magnetic field has to be shaped differently than with historic pole pieces. That may be what prevents it from the vintage tone applications. In the context of the Maple spacers, Butyrate bobbins, enamel wire, etc. lengths we typically go to get those vintage tones.

I think this is what the second paragraph of the article is trying to convey, kind of in reverse. The Rail brings maximum power, all the time, no matter where the string falls over the pickup. To me, that is going to make a difference in tone. Consider Flat vs. Staggered magnets, the 52, etc. Seems like attempts to compensate for what were once perceived as flaws in the pickups. But we like those vintage "flaws."

 

[JamesPaul]

I will add this in a separate post, so it is removable if too OT.

I see a similar dynamic with those of us who like high gain, distorted amps. Audiophiles are horrified by the undersized transformers, saggy power sections, old tube stage designs with harmonic distortion, etc. But it is those "flaws" and others which produce the tones we like. One cannot get those just plugging a guitar into a well designed, solid state amp, like the JC-120. Not the optimal tool for the job, when the job is a distorted guitar tone.

Maybe it's a "Why try to pound the corners off a square peg?" scenario. Just use the correct tool for the job; round peg in this example.

 

[Teleplayer]

Vintage humbuckers normally have one screw coil and a slug coil. The properties of the poles are unbalanced, and use different steel alloys as well. So I think there needs to be unbalanced coils, different steel alloy, maybe a few thou’ difference in metal thickess, or something to create an aspect on unbalance in the two coils of the humbucker. Just my random thoughts.

 

[zionstrat]

Completely second Arty.. The cool rail is an amazingly balanced pickup. In series it is pretty hot, but parallel to self it's pretty vintage.

But my proof on rails is my favorite PAF with extended tonal range... The real Hammer hypervenge. The rails are only on the bass because they tighten it up and it uses oversized pole pieces too keep the high end from getting brittle...

Humbucker Pickups | Guitar Center https://share.google/LF4BcQZSQfZKr57nT

It's pretty exceptional.. grab a used one if you can find it.

 

[GuitarStv]

Vintage humbuckers normally have one screw coil and a slug coil. The properties of the poles are unbalanced, and use different steel alloys as well. So I think there needs to be unbalanced coils, different steel alloy, maybe a few thou’ difference in metal thickess, or something to create an aspect on unbalance in the two coils of the humbucker. Just my random thoughts.

If you make a hybrid with two '59 screw or slug poles it'll still sound like a vintage pickup, so I don't think the unbalanced-ness (at least from poles and screws) makes too much difference.

 

[Mincer]

Vintage humbuckers normally have one screw coil and a slug coil. The properties of the poles are unbalanced, and use different steel alloys as well. So I think there needs to be unbalanced coils, different steel alloy, maybe a few thou’ difference in metal thickess, or something to create an aspect on unbalance in the two coils of the humbucker. Just my random thoughts.

This does makes sense. And having several small magnetic fields vs 2 big ones.

 

[orpheo]

Bill Lawrence's L90 and L500R are vintage voiced rail humbuckerd. Bill&Becky make amazing L500 pickups. I loved the tone of my set. I sold it because I couldn't handle the looks. I'm that shallow.

 

[Artie]

Sure, I've seen it with the little humbuckers, but regular size Rails humbuckers are exclusively high output.

Is the Jazz Rails high output? I'd love to see a bridge version, so one could get the set.

For that matter, I'd love to see a 59 rails set.

 

[Mincer]

Is the Jazz Rails high output? I'd love to see a bridge version, so one could get the set.

For that matter, I'd love to see a 59 rails set.

I suppose the Jazz isn't, but according to the article, Rails are for heavy rock pickups exclusively. A 59 Rails would rock, though.

 

[Artie]

A 59 Rails would rock, though.

I have a project that begs for a 59 Rails set, with both in the Nighthawk form factor. I guess that would be a full on Custom Shop order.

 

[freefrog]

Could a vintage-sounding/ vintage output pickup be designed using rails, or are there limitations in place due to the geometry of the bobbins?
I'd love the idea of a Rails-based pickup that sounds like vintage humbucker. But that might not be possible.

I've already evoked above the Super'Tron, whose existence should prove that yes, it's possible. Other members have mentioned the lowest inductance Bill Lawrence models, which are not hot PU's either.

I'll just sum up the reason why rails don't inherently belong to hi-output pickups: granted, a plain rail instead of 6 cylindrical poles should increase the inductance of a given coil, by adding metal to its core... but if the coil is then de-wound or underwound from the start, that's no more true.

An Epi style mini-humbucker has a rail in one of its coils and still sounds vintage, AFAIK

Also, connecting a hi-output rails PU in parallel opens to old school sonic perspectives: a Dimebucker wired like that has a surprisingly Fender'ish tone, for instance.

 

[Chistopher]

I'm in the camp that it's probably marketing. They don't want to have too many rail pickups, and most people who want rails want something hotter.

Or maybe we are thinking this the wrong way. Why does the Lil 59 have polepieces instead of rails?