All Pickups Sound Dull in the Bridge - 1986 Charvel Model 3a

[EVOLVIST]

Hello,

IME, the brass roller saddles in Kahler bridges tend to soften the acoustic resonance...

I've mounted once an old Kahler Flyer on a partcaster with a basswood body that I had routed and I would also qualify the sound obtained as "dull" with passive pickups...

...and it compensates perfectly the softening effect of Kahler's.

I think you may be on to something. My other two Charvels have the active mid-boost and the pups sound brilliant with the knob at 10. Turn of the mid pre-amp and those pickups sound like ass.

What do you think, get a set of steel rollers for the ol' 2520 Kahler? That should counter any wood issues, yeah?

 

[freefrog]

I think you may be on to something. My other two Charvels have the active mid-boost and the pups sound brilliant with the knob at 10. Turn of the mid pre-amp and those pickups sound like ass.

What do you think, get a set of steel rollers for the ol' 2520 Kahler? That should counter any wood issues, yeah?

Theoretically, yes, it should help.

Now, I won't swear that it will solve your issue: the interaction between elements is always complex when it comes to acoustic resonance (the last steel rollers that I've mounted brightened the sound but brought some atonal parasitic "zing", not so pleasing to hear... LOL).

Good luck in your experiments anyway.

 

[Lewguitar]

I'm not familiar with your guitar, but how would you feel about removing that preamp and turning it into a regular passive guitar?

I think that's what I'd be inclined to do.

Most great players who's tones we love don't have preamps in their guitars.

 

[Mincer]

Or, there are more balanced preamps out there. Replacing that should also be on the table.

 

[EVOLVIST]

Theoretically, yes, it should help.

Now, I won't swear that it will solve your issue: the interaction between elements is always complex when it comes to acoustic resonance (the last steel rollers that I've mounted brightened the sound but brought some atonal parasitic "zing", not so pleasing to hear... LOL).

Good luck in your experiments anyway.

Nah, I know it's a suggestion and an experiment, not a definite. Nonetheless, it make sense to try it. Because, what I'm talking about is a small lack of life to the pup, yet tonally the Invader is what you'd expect from an Invader, if that makes sense; it's just that a little zest is missing from anything I put in the Model 3a. So, without the mid-boost that I have in my Model 5 & 6 (and yes, they have the stock Kahlers with the brass rollers), a Model 3a without the mid-boost might sound dull because with the Model 3a the mid-boost can't cover up a less than optimal trem design like it would the Model 5 & 6.

 

[EVOLVIST]

I wouldn't go with the teflon rollers like this vid, but it also shows the difference between the brass and the steel. I would go with steel because that's what I'm used to with non-Kahler trems, like my 1980 Gibson Sonex-180 Custom.

 

[ErikH]

Another note to those mentioning the preamp in the 3a. There is no preamp in the 3a. They didn't come with one. His 5 and 6 do have the preamp. The issue is with the 3a, fully passive.

Steel saddle rollers could surely make a difference as mentioned. Worth looking in to.

 

[Mincer]

Well, if no preamp, then, I just think it is the wrong pickup.

 

[Clint 55]

Dude the Invader is like the muddiest pickup in the line, are you kidding? Just pick a brighter pickup. The lower in output you go, the brighter the tone gets in general, not vice versa.

 

[dave74]

The gates tb8 invaders (still have another new unopened!) are not even the least bit muddy in my wmd-warbeast (big chunky maple neck-thru w/nato and ebony, but I also wired it with a single 500k volume and no tone in the circuit. It's paired with the stock mafia ceramic neck (dcr-10.5ish, very clear and concise for a neck).

IMO the invader is not right at all for something with a full basswood body.
If I was picking an ideal guitar to try an invader it would be something like a MIJ floyded Jackson dinky-pro(maple bolt-on and alder body w/ebony)

Dimebucker has the clear cutting crunch to match with the typical basswood mushiness. Great combo.
Also look into the nazgul. Based on the demos I've heard and the specs it seems like another good match for basswood (in the high-output realm).

Another random thought;
Why not just use a pedal to boost and shape the gain? The only "problem" then is,,,,,,,,, Which one?! lol

 

[Synapsys]

IMO the invader is not right at all for something with a full basswood body.
If I was picking an ideal guitar to try an invader it would be something like a MIJ floyded Jackson dinky-pro(maple bolt-on and alder body w/ebony)

Had an Invader set once on a Jackson RR3, poplar body, bolt-on maple neck, rosewood board, JT580LP trem. Stellar tones for high gain.

Not my current flavour of tone, though...

 

[Francois]

Hi Evolvist ! I have a 1968 basswood Charvel model 3 (made in Nagano I suppose) and I know what you are talking about. As it is my only basswood guitar (all others are either alder, mahogany or ash) I thought it is because of the body wood (?). This axe is OK for hi-gain but if you happen to play a Fender or a Gibson just before this one in the same rig you will see it lacks something comparatively. But the neck of these guitars is cool.

I noticed the Duncan SSL-5 sounded quite nice in the middle position on this guitar (and enjoyed it with fuzz).
I saw on the internet that someone even put SSL-5 on a Charvel model 3 in both the neck and middle positions (although SSL-5 are not meant for the neck) and was happy with that.

In the bridge position I have a ToneZone that I will swap some day.

There have been thread in the past about which HB could sound great in these guitars. I remember the main recommendations were : Screaming Demon, Full Shred and SH-6 Distortion. Choose according to your style.

I'll try th Full Shred some day. It was meant to "brighten guitars that lack definition" according to SD website.

 

[eaeolian]

This may be absurdly simple, but they're not hard to find or expensive. Just add the preamp to the 3a.

 

[Adieu]

Charvel model 3A body sounded AWESOME on a partscaster build I did with a bridge Duncan JB

I had brass saddles on the trem too... still awesome, nice bite.

Also trIed a Super 70 from the parts box there...also ripped.

PS try direct wiring bridge pup to jack to test if you're wondering about bad pots

 

[freefrog]

Well…

…it has not been said above that the presence of brass roller saddles was a problem per se. I've stated that IME it might behave as a sound softener in Khaler trems, with their materials and/or structure (and even when they are set in a certain way)… it’s just my experience and YMMV but there's food for thought about that elsewhere: https://www.whammyparts.com/faq/174-kahler-different-metal-tones

It hasn’t been claimed either that basswood was systematically dull: IMO, every chunk of wood is susceptible to “sound” different – and many tinkerers might have the feeling that necks impact the tone more than bodies, anyway...

…Of course, the problem might be elsewhere than in trems and woods… But must we think that a guitar set by a “well respected luthier” would still host bad pots?...

Not claiming it’s impossible. Just asking…

Now, here is something else to consider possibly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcccjtTWtiI

 

[dotsdad]

A 1986 Charvel needs a JB.

 

[DonP]

Sorry for bumping this old thread but I'm putting together a Charvel Model 3A (actually a 1989 275 Deluxe with the neck single routed to a humbucker). This will have an OFR for the bridge, so no Kahler issues.

I actually have an Invader loosely installed in the bridge LOL!

I was going to use a DiMarzio PAF / Tone Zone, but I'm worried the Tone Zone may be too dark.

I have a Duncan Mayhem set (Distortion neck and bridge) that would fit.

Which set to choose, or other? Just building a metal axe.

 

[Mincer]

The Mayhem set is pretty much the standard for a great metal axe, and if you leaned more toward hard rock, it would certainly be the JB/Jazz.

 

[DonP]

Don't have a Jazz, but have plenty of JB / 59 loaded Jackson's. 3 USA's and one MIJ. Don't have a DD in anything, so I guess this may be the right choice?

Never tried the Tone Zone either, but have the PAF in a couple on necks and like it.

Oh, and I'll be using Super 5 way E "megaswitch" by Schaller.

 

[Juanhanglo]

Sometimes it is the guitar itself. I have an rg that is the opposite. It never sounds dull. Any pickup I put in (nothing too fat like a tone zone or invader yet) sounds brighter and sharper than all my other guitars, even with the exact pickup installed.

A dactivator, super distortion, norton, and full shred all sounded fatter in other guitars. This one? Bright city.
this guy is going to get a tz/an, transition set, or something else with a fatter bottom end, to balance out.

Some excellent pickup choices were given above to try. You want bright and sterile (?) Maybe? That should balance the dullness you are hearing.

The invader was the wrong pickup to cure "dull" IMO.