Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Alnico 8 is like alnico 2 on steroids with a bit more sparkle on the top end and a lot of grunt.It depends on the wind. They work best with vintage wind between 7.5k and 8.5k where they give a huge boost to the inductance. I’m a fan. I like alnico 8 a lot.

Here’s a demo of my attempt at making super 70s clones based on low output humbuckers that were very close to super 58s with alnico 3 magnets. I replaced them with oversized roughcast alnico 8. Tonally they are not massively different to super distortions with a brighter PAF quality but all the grunt.

This will give you an idea of how they sound.

I may do a compare against my super distortion / PAF pro set and my El Maya special Maxons ( jury is out whether they’re late super 70s or early super 80s due to their use of oversized ceramics mags)

https://youtu.be/e2O-x3a5mrM


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Like an A2 with more grunt.
So i can theoretically roll back the tone knob (say, maybe to '8') to tame the top end, but still have the power and l low end of the A8 ?

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Ceramic magnets have a lower inductance since they are not metallic. Alnico has a higher inductance due to the iron content (technically ferrite magnets are made from iron oxide)

So to generalize, alnico will increase the inductance a bit and sound a bit warmer than a ceramic in the same pickup.

But it all depends on the pickup


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GREAT to know for future searches.
Much appreciated.

 

[vinnie1971]

Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Like an A2 with more grunt.
So i can theoretically roll back the tone knob (say, maybe to '8') to tame the top end, but still have the power and l low end of the A8 ?

Yes. But it does depend on the wind. In my pickups the top end is not at all clanky it does not have that shrill ping of say pearly gates....

Best bet is try it. If it’s too bright try a 500 k resistor on the outer lug of your tone pots to see a 250k tone pot or dial the top me back.

But I find it’s not needed. If your humbuckers are between 7.5k and 8.5k you’ll get a beefy PAF like tone similar to alnico 2 with mid range focus but a thicker tighter bass, and a bit more sparkle from the top end.

In my humbuckers, which are both low DCR and low inductance the tone is like a cross between a PAF and a super distortion. It’s a really good sound.

Two of my favourite pickups : Maxon super 70 and super 80 are low DCR low inductance- so if you use a lower strength magnet in those they lose output and the bass is practically non-existent.
So in those Maxon pickups, oversized alnico 8 and ceramic respectively boost the inductance and shape the EQ to give a very pleasing tone indeed.




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[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Yes. But it does depend on the wind. In my pickups the top end is not at all clanky it does not have that shrill ping of say pearly gates....

Best bet is try it. If it’s too bright try a 500 k resistor on the outer lug of your tone pots to see a 250k tone pot or dial the top me back.

But I find it’s not needed. If your humbuckers are between 7.5k and 8.5k you’ll get a beefy PAF like tone similar to alnico 2 with mid range focus but a thicker tighter bass, and a bit more sparkle from the top end.

In my humbuckers, which are both low DCR and low inductance the tone is like a cross between a PAF and a super distortion. It’s a really good sound.

Two of my favourite pickups : Maxon super 70 and super 80 are low DCR low inductance- so if you use a lower strength magnet in those they lose output and the bass is practically non-existent.
So in those Maxon pickups, oversized alnico 8 and ceramic respectively boost the inductance and shape the EQ to give a very pleasing tone indeed.




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Thank you very much for the info

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Not to steal the thread, but for you guys who have dropped double-thick A8 magnets in your pickups, where did you get them? Is it possible to get smaller side A8 magnets for a tri-magnet structure ala Black Winter or Invader, but with A8?

I'm curious about trying A8 in my Black Winters.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Not to steal the thread, but for you guys who have dropped double-thick A8 magnets in your pickups, where did you get them? Is it possible to get smaller side A8 magnets for a tri-magnet structure ala Black Winter or Invader, but with A8?

I'm curious about trying A8 in my Black Winters.

AxesRUs has magnetic spacers in various alnico types. Their thickest A8s are only 5mm though- thicker than usual, but not double.
https://www.axesrus.co.uk/2-x-Magnetic-Spacers-p/g109bfe-spacers.htm

I ordered my A8s from Cermag; they're 6.5mm which is double the usual 3.2mm. (They have A5s in that thickness too.)
https://www.cermagmagnets.co.uk/alnico-bars-for-hb-double-width---62mm-x-65mm-x-125mm-39-p.asp

I got a double thick A5 intending to put it in my old Duncan SH-7, but for now I'm undecided about modding a 70s classic. Might do it anyway, one of these days.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Thank you!

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Not to steal the thread, but for you guys who have dropped double-thick A8 magnets in your pickups, where did you get them? Is it possible to get smaller side A8 magnets for a tri-magnet structure ala Black Winter or Invader, but with A8?

I'm curious about trying A8 in my Black Winters.

. . . see what YOU started now ?

Now i am thinking how would my A2P bridge sound with a double thick (6.5mm) A2 mag with more (max) windings added.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

. . . see what YOU started now ?

Now i am thinking how would my A2P bridge sound with a double thick (6.5mm) A2 mag with more (max) windings added.

Have you thought about trying a Slash bridge? Great sounding pickup; I have the Slash set in a Mockingbird.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

I’m pretty sure they use it on alnico pickups too.

They first started that with the 20th Anniversary PAF. That also used the “air gap” idea and custom slugs shaped like screws.

I spent many hours stuffing those little iron slugs into bobbins when I worked there! They would turn my fingers black.

The cool thing about increasing the inductance with steel/iron is you can use less turns of wire and still get a full tone. But without the typical high end loss.

Increasing the inductance gives you high end loss, too, as inductance lowers the resonant peak. Peak frequency = 1 / (2 x Pi x SQRT(L x C)), L is inductance.

I doubt the slugs do much, they displace only a very tiny portion of air gap in the magnetic circuit with iron, and I suspect the extra labor and sourcing for materials involved results in higher costs than had you just added a hundred or so more turns of wire on the coils. Not every idea is a good one.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Increasing the inductance gives you high end loss, too, as inductance lowers the resonant peak. Peak frequency = 1 / (2 x Pi x SQRT(L x C)), L is inductance.

I doubt the slugs do much, they displace only a very tiny portion of air gap in the magnetic circuit with iron, and I suspect the extra labor and sourcing for materials involved results in higher costs than had you just added a hundred or so more turns of wire on the coils. Not every idea is a good one.

But it seems to work just fine. I doubt they would have incurred the cost of having the slugs made along with the bobbins.

You can hear the difference if you replace the pole screws with different alloys of steel. Less carbon is “warmer” sounding. You can also hear the difference with different screw lengths.

I’ve experimented with high inductance/low resistance pickups quite a bit. A few hundred turns of wire doesn’t do very much to the tone, but more steel does.


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[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Well if you say your fingers were black from inserting little iron slugs, then I'm highly certain that more labor was involved than just allowing the winding machines to add an extra 100 turns.

I can't speak to what you hear, nor what you judge as "warm", but looking at this through basic transformer design, reducing air gap to such a small extent won't change the inductance by more than a very small percentage. Do you have any before/after values as an example?

 

[vinnie1971]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

AxesRUs has magnetic spacers in various alnico types. Their thickest A8s are only 5mm though- thicker than usual, but not double.
https://www.axesrus.co.uk/2-x-Magnetic-Spacers-p/g109bfe-spacers.htm

I ordered my A8s from Cermag; they're 6.5mm which is double the usual 3.2mm. (They have A5s in that thickness too.)
https://www.cermagmagnets.co.uk/alnico-bars-for-hb-double-width---62mm-x-65mm-x-125mm-39-p.asp

I got a double thick A5 intending to put it in my old Duncan SH-7, but for now I'm undecided about modding a 70s classic. Might do it anyway, one of these days.

Ditto

I got my oversized roughcast alnico 8s from axesrus is too!

I’ve also got a few of their pickups. They are very good.


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[vinnie1971]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Not to steal the thread, but for you guys who have dropped double-thick A8 magnets in your pickups, where did you get them? Is it possible to get smaller side A8 magnets for a tri-magnet structure ala Black Winter or Invader, but with A8?

I'm curious about trying A8 in my Black Winters.

I’ve got standard sized polished and roughcast alnico 8 pickups from eBay.


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[tstone2]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

I recently swapped in an Alternate 8 into my Fender Talon. It handles High Gain really well. It's not a bright sounding as the Duncan Distortion it replaced. It is loud, more bass, more mids and I usually dial in a bit more treble when I use it. I like it, it's a keeper in that guitar.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

I can't speak to what you hear, nor what you judge as "warm", but looking at this through basic transformer design, reducing air gap to such a small extent won't change the inductance by more than a very small percentage. Do you have any before/after values as an example?

Well looking at this through basic transformer design will dictate that the greater the magnetic permeability of the core the coil is wrapped around, the greater the the inductance. You say a small percent, but do you know the μ, and μr for a virtual vintage bobbin compared to a standard slug or pole of equal alloy?

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

Well looking at this through basic transformer design will dictate that the greater the magnetic permeability of the core the coil is wrapped around, the greater the the inductance. You say a small percent, but do you know the μ, and μr for a virtual vintage bobbin compared to a standard slug or pole of equal alloy?

When the magnetic path is dominated by air gap, the specific value of the permeability is much less important. In transformers with intentional air gaps, the gaps are usually very small. Consider the difference between a pickup with steel pole pieces versus alnico, the pickups with steel pole pieces should have a much higher inductance, as the permeability of electrical steel is orders of magnitude greater than alnico, and yet the outcomes are not that much different, because the majority of the magnetic circuit is air. You'd see the same thing with ferrite slugs, unless you significantly fill out the magnetic path with the permeable metal, the increase in inductance will be small.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

i can not find a semi decent explanation / comparison between the general tonal characteristics of an Alnico 8 and Ceramic magnet when it comes to pick ups.

I'm glad the thread took a more informative tone than I expected, or I'm completely off my rocker, because my opinion was that this was one of the completely beaten-to-death topics of the Pickup Lounge.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

When the magnetic path is dominated by air gap, the specific value of the permeability is much less important. In transformers with intentional air gaps, the gaps are usually very small. Consider the difference between a pickup with steel pole pieces versus alnico, the pickups with steel pole pieces should have a much higher inductance, as the permeability of electrical steel is orders of magnitude greater than alnico, and yet the outcomes are not that much different, because the majority of the magnetic circuit is air. You'd see the same thing with ferrite slugs, unless you significantly fill out the magnetic path with the permeable metal, the increase in inductance will be small.

So in other words you cannot put up the measured differences either. Judging by your initial post, I’m assuming you haven’t tried doing this and have no real relevant bench tests to offer.

Just a friendly suggestion, if you are trying to discredit something as a sham, then provide real measured evidence for your case. Provide data from in person tests of the item, experiment with the concept and reach your conclusion stating what it would take in this item, and in practice to achieve the measured audible difference the product claims to produce.

Don’t just make a statement calling shenanigans and then make it so it’s anothers burden to provide the evidence for your thesis. It’s like watching an episode of Myth Buster where the hosts tell you it’s bs without providing the counter evidence, and then make the viewers do all the work to prove or disprove their point.

 

[PicoRiveraTele]

Re: Alnico 8 vs. Ceramic.

So in other words you cannot put up the measured differences either. Judging by your initial post, I’m assuming you haven’t tried doing this and have no real relevant bench tests to offer.

Just a friendly suggestion, if you are trying to discredit something as a sham, then provide real measured evidence for your case. Provide data from in person tests of the item, experiment with the concept and reach your conclusion stating what it would take in this item, and in practice to achieve the measured audible difference the product claims to produce.

Don’t just make a statement calling shenanigans and then make it so it’s anothers burden to provide the evidence for your thesis. It’s like watching an episode of Myth Buster where the hosts tell you it’s bs without providing the counter evidence, and then make the viewers do all the work to prove or disprove their point.

My reasoning is not dependent on bench tests; I'm citing transformer design and basic concepts of magnetic reluctance paths. My claims do not depend on specific measured values. The person who worked with DiMarzio does not have an measured values to cite, either.

Here's more detail on what I'm taking about https://coefs.uncc.edu/mnoras/files/2013/03/Transformer-and-Inductor-Design-Handbook_Chapter_1.pdf

Air Gap
A high permeability material is one that has a low reluctance for a given magnetic path length (MPL) and
iron cross-section, Ac. If an air gap is included in a magnetic circuit as shown in Figure 1-28, which is
otherwise composed of low reluctivity material like iron, almost all of the reluctance in the circuit will be at
the gap, because the reluctivity of air is much greater than that of a magnetic material. For all practical
purposes, controlling the size of the air gap controls the reluctance.

So in the case of a pickup and guitar string, it's mostly all air gap with a little bit of permeable material by way of the steel parts and the guitar strings. Adding little iron beads will only increase the inductance by a little, because you're only reducing the magnetic reluctance by a little.

Very little change in the reluctance path means very little change to inductance or overall output.