Alnico III vs IV?

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Somewhat off subject, but would the magnetic strength of an un-oriented alnico 5 be the same as a regular alnico 5? Stupid question I know, but I’m totally clueless on the subject.
Thanks,

The unoriented bars I have on hand are mostly stronger than the oriented A5, I'd say by 5% or so, even though in theory they should be weaker, which just goes to show that regardless of potential charge, the amount of magnetic charge the magnet happens to be holding can favor either one.

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Yes we know you "think" lots of things... just because you "think" its perfect doesnt make it so.

How do you know what qualifications I hold? How do you know what I actually know? Confidence doesnt impress me, Its not hard to disseminate when someone is speaking from a position of information or a position of knowledge.

The people I made inference too earlier are very knowledgeable. The sort of people that when you are around its better to just shut up and listen.

argumentum ad verecundiam

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Expert wine tasters have been fooled into thinking a single wine was two different wines by simply changing the label on the bottle.

Yeah, but they're quite literally corksniffers. Label means everything to them.

I'm talking about unidentified things, too, where we don't know what they are until afterwards.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

argumentum ad verecundiam

It is not an appeal to an authority. Do you even know how an appeal to an authority works?

No where was i saying this person said X and this person is prestigious so it must be true.

Please brush up on your rhetorical discourse before you attempt to engage in it.


Edit: btw falsely calling out a logical fallacy is a serious mistep if made during an academic debate.

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Yeah, but they're quite literally corksniffers. Label means everything to them.

I'm talking about unidentified things, too, where we don't know what they are until afterwards.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

It's not about the label, it's about expectation. The label just creates an expectation, in the same way that "vintage" creates an expectation of better tone, so you have people tripping over themselves to get $80 NOS PIO caps in their guitars. Some say there is no difference, some say there is, but in either case, the difference/non-difference is blown way out of proportion by the guitar community.

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

It is not an appeal to an authority. Do you even know how an appeal to an authority works?

Its not hard to disseminate when someone is speaking from a position of information or a position of knowledge.

The people I made inference too earlier are very knowledgeable. The sort of people that when you are around its better to just shut up and listen.

The problem is that you only assert they have knowledge because of the positions they hold, not because they have provided said knowledge.

Overall, you're confusing experience with understanding. You can experience something your whole life and yet never actually understand it.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Overall, you're confusing experience with understanding. You can experience something your whole life and yet never actually understand it.

Experience can provide understanding. Even then I didnt claim their only source of knowledge was experience. Just that it didnt require quantum physics degrees like Kojak suggested

Now are you suggesting that you cannot gain understanding through experience?

 

[If6Was9]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

The unoriented bars I have on hand are mostly stronger than the oriented A5, I'd say by 5% or so, even though in theory they should be weaker, which just goes to show that regardless of potential charge, the amount of magnetic charge the magnet happens to be holding can favor either one.

Thanks DreX for the response!

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Experience can provide understanding. Even then I didnt claim their only source of knowledge was experience. Just that it didnt require quantum physics degrees like Kojak suggested

Now are you suggesting that you cannot gain understanding through experience?

Understanding is relative. A person can experience something, but still come to an incorrect understanding about that thing, by mixing up correlation and causation, for example.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Understanding is relative. A person can experience something, but still come to an incorrect understanding about that thing, by mixing up correlation and causation, for example.

And so? are you implying that the good people at Seymour Duncan who have experience with pickups dont understand them?

I'm not talking in abstracts here. My whole entry into this thread was based off of Kojaks silly notion that you must hold advanced degrees to understand a magnet. My position is that this is false you dont have to be a metallurgical professor to understand a magnet.

Now are you implying that people like Mr Falbo dont understand them?

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

I'm not sure if the OP, mountain2012, was asking about the strength of magnets because he was supposing that strength accounted for the tone differences, but it should be said that magnetic strength is only one factor that causes a magnet to associate with a particular tone. Part of the reason people might be so fuzzy on how an A3 differs from and A2 or and A4 versus A5 is because not only are the differences subtle to begin with, but we're assuming they're fully charged, and the magnets I've received from two different suppliers came not only with inconsistent changes among the magnets, but inconsistencies along the length of the bars themselves, so the A4 you receive might not perform the same as the A4 I receive. That's not even taking into account the formulation differences between foundries.

A lot of people like to experiment with different bars, but I think people out to try various charges as well. The degaussed Antiquity pickups sound pretty nice.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Hrmm yes and the idea that not all magnets are the same is one I put forth about a year ago and got dog piled on by certain members here. There are issues with magnet quality and consistency. Some people took great offense that I suggested that the magnets i received from a popular vendor were not very consistent.

Now I have noticed that magnets from other vendors do seem to have better quality control. In particular magnets pulled from SD pickups are very consistent in their charge. Which is done in house and might have something to do with it.

But I do agree that magnets certainly arent the same. If you are up for spending a bit of money Throbak offers 2 different A5's from different foundaries. They dont sound wildly different but do have very audible differences when installed.

As for experimenting with charge, its worthwhile for tinkerers to play with but most of them will not. They prefer the ability to just buy a mag and slap it in. Not have to buy a couple neodyms and a gauss meter and play with it (btw not a fan of charging with neodyms)

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

I'm not talking in abstracts here. My whole entry into this thread was based off of Kojaks silly notion that you must hold advanced degrees to understand a magnet. My position is that this is false you dont have to be a metallurgical professor to understand a magnet.

We're not talking about understanding from observation, we're talking about understanding through discrete principles of physics. We don't have to rely on experience to know how the coil winds impact tone in the same way that we have to rely on experience to intuit how the magnet will effect the tone. That's the disparity.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

It's not about the label, it's about expectation. The label just creates an expectation, in the same way that "vintage" creates an expectation of better tone, so you have people tripping over themselves to get $80 NOS PIO caps in their guitars. Some say there is no difference, some say there is, but in either case, the difference/non-difference is blown way out of proportion by the guitar community.

Which is why your analogy doesn't work. My examples gave no reason to have an expectation, just a comparison of A vs B that scientifically measured the same but were still discernably different.

And I don't buy into the snakeoil of $80 caps and whatnot. Heck, some of my guitars don't even have tone pots.

Regardless, we're veering away from the question regarding A3 vs A4 (and other magnets). Let's get back on point.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

My whole entry into this thread was based off of Kojaks silly notion that you must hold advanced degrees to understand a magnet.

Again, that's NOT what I said.

Again, that's your own twisted interpretation of my words.

Read the post again. Get your attention at the word "magnetism", that doesn't mean "magnet", and find out exactly what "Alnico grading" means. I think that's where the misunderstanding lies.

HTH,

 

[dominus]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

IME, it'll make your teeth hurt. Ouch!

A9 has all the defects of a ceramic and none of the alnico virtues, making'em more obvious and louder, costing ten times as much.

If somebody by any chance would like the tone produced by an A9, should look at neodymium mags, costing the same or even less than ceramics.

I'm going to have to try an A9 vs a Neo one of these days. I like the A9 I put in a hybrid a few weeks ago. (Put an A3 in the neck version of the hybrid.) Got some A6s here but I'm not sure if they'll ever find homes, I prefer brightening things up, and I think all of my guitars are mahogany right now.

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Which is why your analogy doesn't work. My examples gave no reason to have an expectation, just a comparison of A vs B that scientifically measured the same but were still discernably different.

And I don't buy into the snakeoil of $80 caps and whatnot. Heck, some of my guitars don't even have tone pots.

Regardless, we're veering away from the question regarding A3 vs A4 (and other magnets). Let's get back on point.

I gotta say this even if it earns me an infraction; it's cheap for a moderator to get the last word in, then say "let's get back on topic" and then give out an infraction is anyone replies to the last off topic remark you had made.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

I gotta say this even if it earns me an infraction; it's cheap for a moderator to get the last word in, then say "let's get back on topic" and then give out an infraction is anyone replies to the last off topic remark you had made.

You're welcome to start your own thread about it, but the discussion no longer belongs is this thread. That's the distinction you always seem to miss. If your have off-topic comments to make then go make your own topic.

Learn to stop turning other people's threads into your pet topic.

If you want to discuss this any further, PM me, like you should have done with the post I'm replying to, or else you are getting another infraction.

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[Edgecrusher]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Again, that's NOT what I said.

Again, that's your own twisted interpretation of my words.

Read the post again. Get your attention at the word "magnetism", that doesn't mean "magnet", and find out exactly what "Alnico grading" means. I think that's where the misunderstanding lies.

HTH,

Yeah this is just going in a loop. The semantics are worth nothing... you cant have a magnet without magnetism. Besides I was paraphrasing you and not quoting you hence the lack of quotes. You already know that I know very well what alnico grading is my guess is it was an attempt to be derisive and snarky.

Ive stated multiple times that my position is it doesnt require an advanced degree to understand magnets in pickups. I will even go out on the limb and say that most quantum physicists dont understand the relationships of magnets or magnetics as applied to electrical guitar pickups. Guitar pickups would be outside of their sphere.

Anyways this is all off topic so this will be my last post off topic...

Back to the AIII's!

 

[DreX]

Re: Alnico III vs IV?

Here are some sound recordings of a '59 Neck with various magnets strummed in a test rig that applies nearly the same plucking force for each go around. The audio files are trimmed so they are equal length with the strums hitting all at the exact same second. I had used the sound files for frequency analysis, figuring the differences will ultimately be easier to see than hear, but they were actually very hard to see, too. But here's the source material in anyone else finds it useful.


A2


A3


A4


A5


C8


Uno A5


No magnet