Aluminum wound pickups?

[Chistopher]

I had a chance to play a telecaster with Zephyr pickups (The neck is nice, but they are too hi-fi for my taste) and it got me thinking about using other materials for a pickup. I came across Lace Sensor's Alumitone pickups and I started to search for aluminum pickups with conventional construction and aesthetics. I couldn't find any.

Are their any pickups that are wound of aluminum and I just haven't been looking hard enough? I think that with all the tricks to restore the high end that would be lost from the higher resistance of the aluminum (I know the SD custom shop can do a heck of a lot) that ignoring aluminum, or other materials, for pickups is ignoring a whole section of pickup manufacture.

There are several other advantages, such as: aluminum is cheaper than copper, 30% the weight of copper (I admit, this makes little difference), and if you leave it uncovered it has a pretty cool aesthetic. Does anyone else agree that this is worth a try? If not, please explain in detail.

 

[Chris Pile]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

Alumitones are not wound with aluminum.
Also, its conductivity isn't that great.
Gee- now that I think about it, how much magnetism would aluminum wire generate?
NOT FRICKING MUCH.

 

[Davii]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

I was going to try different materials, but either couldn't find a workable gauge, or contiguous amount to try out. When I enquired about that, it was hard work explaining why, so I gave up trying to.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Aluminum wound pickups?

Ok, keep in mind that the Alumitone, and the Transsensor that preceded it, are current driven pickups and very different from the standard pickup with a coil of magnet wire. They use a single turn of aluminum, or copper for the Transsensor, and that signal is stepped up using a current transformer which does use copper wire.

You could use aluminum. Aluminum has 61 percent of the resistance as copper.

Some loud speakers use aluminum windings. Copper is a more efficient conductor. So for speakers you need more aluminum wire to transmit the same current.

I'm not sure of anyone using aluminum magnet wire for pickups, but they would clearly sound different because of the increased resistance. And probably have lower output.

Silver, as used in the Zephyr, is a better conductor than copper, so the resistance would be lower.

Now let's think about why that might change the sound of the pickup. I haven't used silver wire, but I have wound pickups with larger diameter copper wire. Larger diameter wire has a lower resistance. And the tone is as you said for the Zephyr; it's brighter and more hi-fi sounding.

So one could argue that just using 41 or 40 gauge wire would get you the same tone (I haven't looked up the resistance per foot for silver 42 gauge wire). But then you can't fit as much wire on the bobbin.

One thing about the Zephyr is they also use very different materials for the pole pieces. They are magnetic stainless steel clad nickel. This will change the tone quite a bit.

I've made pickups with stainless steel blades, and they are much brighter than the exact same bobbins and magnets with low carbon steel blades.

I'd try some aluminum magnet wire if it were easily available. I don't see any listed online in the sizes used for pickups, so I imagine it's mostly for speakers and solenoids.

I'd guess it would be darker sounding than copper, but that's just a guess.


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[beaubrummels]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

aluminum is cheaper than copper, 30% the weight of copper

It's also half the conductivity. Not sure how it would work as part of a circuit.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

This thread is mostly my lack of knowledge regarding the finer aspects of pickup making, so if I say something incorrect, please exuse it. Regarding some points that were made earlier:

It's also half the conductivity. Not sure how it would work as part of a circuit.

I just assumed that it would only affect the eq curve and output, not anything else.

Gee- now that I think about it, how much magnetism would aluminum wire generate?
NOT FRICKING MUCH.

I don't think sliver wire generates magnetism either.

Finally, I see DavidRavenMoon has noticed how they would be darker, if they work. I would think you could could retain some highs by using stainless steel blades or maybe even busting out A7 magnets. Those are too harsh for any other applications. I also think A7's could solve the output issues, at least partially.

If only I had the resources...

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

If one knew how the stacked PCB technique that is used in Fluence pickups it might be possible to experiment with a variety of metals. I know nothing about this technology so this is speculation to the n th factor. But if you could pick your flavor in building the PCB: copper coated with silver, Litz wire, Aluminum, gold or various alloys or coated concoctions of all of the above. If you don't have to wind the possibilities are staggering, I think maybe, huh?

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

Alumitones are not wound with aluminum

Do you understand how Alumitones work?
The aluminum framework you see, with the slits cut in it, is the coil. It's a single turn current pickup. So it is more-or-less wound with aluminum. It also has a small current transformer wound with copper wire.

Also, its conductivity isn't that great.
Gee- now that I think about it, how much magnetism would aluminum wire generate?
NOT FRICKING MUCH.

That's not how pickups work. If you move a magnetic field through aluminum wire it will generate current.
Doesn't matter what the wire is made of. It just has to be a conductor. But the wire in a pickup does not generate a magnetic field. That's why pickups have magnets.
On the other hand, if you feed a current through a coil wound with aluminum wire it will indeed create a magnetic field. And that's how loud speakers work. And many use aluminum voice coils.


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[DavidRavenMoon]

Aluminum wound pickups?

If one knew how the stacked PCB technique that is used in Fluence pickups it might be possible to experiment with a variety of metals. I know nothing about this technology so this is speculation to the n th factor. But if you could pick your flavor in building the PCB: copper coated with silver, Litz wire, Aluminum, gold or various alloys or coated concoctions of all of the above. If you don't have to wind the possibilities are staggering, I think maybe, huh?

It's a coil, but it's on a printed circuit board. This is common with microwave circuits. But printed circuit boards are always made with copper.

I actually talked about microwave coils at the Pickup Makers forum years before the Fluence pickup came out. I used to help make them (using camera ready art to shoot on a stack camera) back when I worked at ITT in the 70's. I thought it would be a cool thing to try, but you would end up with a very low resistance coil.
That's why they stack them up. At that point it kind of becomes a gimmick. Any low z coil with their tone shaping circuit would work. You can wind a regular copper coil with heavier gauge wire.

But I see little point is using different coil materials.
Rick Turner has used Litz wire.


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[Chris Pile]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

Do you understand how Alumitones work?

Frankly, no - I am old school.
And I know the coil doesn't generate magnetism... I don't know why I wrote that.
Lace stuff sounds fantastic though.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

It's a coil, but it's on a printed circuit board. This is common with microwave circuits. But printed circuit boards are always made with copper.

I actually talked about microwave coils at the Pickup Makers forum years before the Fluence pickup came out. I used to help make them (using camera ready art to shoot on a stack camera) back when I worked at ITT in the 70's. I thought it would be a cool thing to try, but you would end up with a very low resistance coil.
That's why they stack them up. At that point it kind of becomes a gimmick. Any low z coil with their tone shaping circuit would work. You can wind a regular copper coil with heavier gauge wire.

But I see little point is using different coil materials.
Rick Turner has used Litz wire.


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What were the results of Frank Turners LW pickups?
Are you saying the stacked PCB concept is a gimmick, the real reason they are world class pickups is strictly their tone shaping circuit?
Do you known of any silver coated copper wire pickups?

I do not think all printed circuit boards are or necessarily have to be made of copper. Therefore it would be possible to try other materials to build the "coil" and use a preamp without tone shaping to hear if there is any point in using anything but copper in wound pickups. Once again I don't know buttkiss about any of this but am curious, huh?

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

I was thinking about a completely passive design, but I can see how active would work better. Maybe something similar to how dualities are made.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Aluminum wound pickups?

What were the results of Frank Turners LW pickups?

Not familiar with him. Was that the guy from EMG and Fender?

Are you saying the stacked PCB concept is a gimmick, the real reason they are world class pickups is strictly their tone shaping circuit?

How are they "world class" pickups? They are voiced to sound like Fender pickups.

Is it a gimmick? Yes and no. It's a valid alternative to winding magnet wire on a coil. But is it necessary? The advantages they state are precision and consistency. But regular pickups are already very consistent. How much precision is needed? I hand wind pickups and they all come out with very close readings. And the bit they are off is nothing you can hear.

I like new technology. And I've used other active pickups for years. I had a preamp in my '73 Rick bass back in 1976. So I'm no stranger to trying different things.

I think it's a cool idea. It's an idea I had years ago. It's s common way to make coils for RF and microwave circuits. I didn't think it was worth bothering with, but I'm glad someone did.

What I find gimmicky is the whole hype around them. Calling them "world class" is unwarranted. But they are innovative. There's no such thing as the "best" pickups. It's all subjective.

Do you known of any silver coated copper wire pickups?

Silver coated? There's zero reason to do that. I think it's safe to say that no one makes silver plated copper wire.

Copper is used because it's easy to draw into hair thin wire, and it has very good electrical properties. That's why it's been used for wire for the past 100 or so years. It's also easy to solder to. You can solder silver wire, but you can't easily solder aluminum wire.

Magnet wire is coated with an insulator. It's not bare wire. The most common coating on modern wire is poly/nylon. The coating does not change the tone, but the thickness will. So plain enamel sounds the same as poly (SPN) and formvar (formal varnish) as long as they are the same thickness.

I do not think all printed circuit boards are or necessarily have to be made of copper. Therefore it would be possible to try other materials to build the "coil" and use a preamp without tone shaping to hear if there is any point in using anything but copper in wound pickups. Once again I don't know buttkiss about any of this but am curious, huh?

I've never seen a PCB that was not copper clad. It's an easy material to work with. If you used something else what would the benefits be? All you are doing is changing the DC resistance per foot.

The only reason to use a preamp with a pickup is for impedance matching (such as with low Z coils) or for tone shaping.

The interesting thing is that many guitarists would not like the tone of a low Z coil. That includes Alumitones and Fluence. They would find them too bright with lots of finger noise. Almost the way the guitar sounds unplugged.

So it's common to make them sound like high impedance pickups through tone shaping.



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[frankfalbo]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

But I see little point is using different coil materials.
Rick Turner has used Litz wire.

What were the results of Frank Turners LW pickups?

Not familiar with him. Was that the guy from EMG and Fender?

No he doesn't mean Bill Turner (RIP) from EMG & Fender, who was (EMG) Rob Turner's brother. NeedForPower is likely Lee Olsen, who has already been banned here many many times, for multiple accounts, but still returns somehow. And not just for having simultaneous accounts or for returning after being banned, but even for arguing with himself, taking two sides of an issue and pretending to be two different people arguing about something. He purposely chose "Frank Turner" as a phony "mistake" and means Rick Turner. So needless to say he's probably loving the fact that this is turning into a long drawn out back and forth exchange. That's generally his objective.

To the OP, aluminum wire-wound pickups would provide no advantage, unless the advantage was deconstructive in nature, like cutting grooves into a pick, using a rough slide, or crusty strings, torn speaker cones, etc. it's not that an aluminum wire wound coil would produce an inherently "bad" or dirty sound just that it would represent underperformance in all characteristics, so you'd have to design something purposefully alternative. I don't think it has any promise.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

Silver coated? There's zero reason to do that. I think it's safe to say that no one makes silver plated copper wire.

WHUT? http://www.elektrisola.com/conductor-materials/plated-wires/silver-plated-copper.html
There're more than zero reasons.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

Maybe this needs aluminum pickups:?:

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

WHUT? http://www.elektrisola.com/conductor-materials/plated-wires/silver-plated-copper.html
There're more than zero reasons.

"This material combines the advantages of copper, such as the conductivity, with the bright and shiny surface of silver. In addition, the silver coating provides high corrosion resistance. All these advantages make it the favorite choice for high frequency wire, as well as, colored textile wire."

Zero reasons in pickup applications. Unless you just want expensive shiny wire. Lol


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[frankfalbo]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

If you believe the skin of the wire is contributory to the performance, there are more than zero reasons. Aside from that, I don't necessarily seek pickup making R&D from the product description on the wire manufacturers' website, although there's a reason they list high frequency wire...

That said, I have no plans to advocate for silver plated wire in pickup use, but it's not nothing.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

The wire is too thin to worry about the skin effect at the frequencies we are dealing with.


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[Davii]

Re: Aluminum wound pickups?

A conducting outer would provide grounding all the way through the coil, which could be worthwhile? Assuming there was something between that, and internal conductor of course.