Am I out of tune?

Re: Am I out of tune?

Locking nuts and lubricated nuts can help guitars stay the way you tune them, and an intonated nut can help a lot down in the cowboy chord area. But that isn't the root of the problem.

Western intonation is tempered, so certain intervals won't ever be perfectly in tune. This is true even on a piano, but various mechanical aspects of the guitar make it worse for some chords/intervals than others. And the problem isn't 100% the same from one guitar to another.

It is possible to tune a piano to "just intonation" which will play perfectly in tune - but only in one chosen key. As soon as you modulate, it all goes sideways. This is why we use tempered intonation: it's a compromise to be able to play in all keys and still be close to in tune. Close, but not perfect.

Another element in this is personal playing style. Some guys play harder than others, and I think certain players with a lot of experience and very good pitch may have evolved a style which compensates for certain chord formations that have natural pitch shortcomings.

Context is also a factor; if a song has a raunchy sound, being a little bit out in certain spots doesn't grate on the ear. Same with a dense arrangement. But in a very sparse and pure arrangement, a little dissonance is far more noticeable.

Finally there's perception. We tend to be especially analytical about our own playing, both technique and sound. I can hear a slight out-of-tuneness on certain chords in my own playing, especially when I'm playnig by myself. With a band not so much, yet I can still pick it out if I listen closely. Yet I seldom notice it on the same chords in any of my favorite classic rock recordings. Of course, standards were lower in the old days and there are spots where a guitar was obviously not tuned well. But that is noticeable throughout, not just on certain problematic chords. So it's not related to the issue I'm talking about.
 
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Re: Am I out of tune?

eclecticsynergy said:
Locking nuts and lubricated nuts can help guitars stay the way you tune them, and an intonated nut can help a lot down in the cowboy chord area. But that isn't the root of the problem.

Western intonation is tempered, so certain intervals won't ever be perfectly in tune. This is true even on a piano, but various mechanical aspects of the guitar make it worse for some chords/intervals than others. And the problem isn't 100% the same from one guitar to another.

It is possible to tune a piano to "just intonation" which will play perfectly in tune - but only in one chosen key. As soon as you modulate, it all goes sideways. This is why we use tempered intonation: it's a compromise to be able to play in all keys and still be close to in tune. Close, but not perfect.

Another element in this is personal playing style. Some guys play harder than others, and I think certain players with a lot of experience and very good pitch may have evolved a style which compensates for certain chord formations that have natural pitch shortcomings.

Context is also a factor; if a song has a raunchy sound, being a little bit out in certain spots doesn't grate on the ear. Same with a dense arrangement. But in a very sparse and pure arrangement, a little dissonance is far more noticeable.

Finally there's perception. We tend to be especially analytical about our own playing, both technique and sound. I can hear a slight out-of-tuneness on certain chords in my own playing, especially when I'm playnig by myself. With a band not so much, yet I can still pick it out if I listen closely. Yet I seldom notice it on the same chords in any of my favorite classic rock recordings. Of course, standards were lower in the old days and there are spots where a guitar was obviously not tuned well. But that is noticeable throughout, not just on certain problematic chords. So it's not related to the issue I'm talking about.
Click to expand...
Thanks for typing this all out so that I don’t need to. :)
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

eclecticsynergy said:
Locking nuts and lubricated nuts can help guitars stay the way you tune them, and an intonated nut can help a lot down in the cowboy chord area. But that isn't the root of the problem.

Western intonation is tempered, so certain intervals won't ever be perfectly in tune. This is true even on a piano, but various mechanical aspects of the guitar make it worse for some chords/intervals than others. And the problem isn't 100% the same from one guitar to another.

It is possible to tune a piano to "just intonation" which will play perfectly in tune - but only in one chosen key. As soon as you modulate, it all goes sideways. This is why we use tempered intonation: it's a compromise to be able to play in all keys and still be close to in tune. Close, but not perfect.

Another element in this is personal playing style. Some guys play harder than others, and I think certain players with a lot of experience and very good pitch may have evolved a style which compensates for certain chord formations that have natural pitch shortcomings.

Context is also a factor; if a song has a raunchy sound, being a little bit out in certain spots doesn't grate on the ear. Same with a dense arrangement. But in a very sparse and pure arrangement, a little dissonance is far more noticeable.

Finally there's perception. We tend to be especially analytical about our own playing, both technique and sound. I can hear a slight out-of-tuneness on certain chords in my own playing, especially when I'm playnig by myself. With a band not so much, yet I can still pick it out if I listen closely. Yet I seldom notice it on the same chords in any of my favorite classic rock recordings. Of course, standards were lower in the old days and there are spots where a guitar was obviously not tuned well. But that is noticeable throughout, not just on certain problematic chords. So it's not related to the issue I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

I think that's big part of "tone is in the fingers". When you are good enough to play with your ear rather than focusing on your fingering, you start subconciously altering the way you play different notes and chords.

Slight vibrato messes up the exact intervall so that helps a lot with distictively problematic notes.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

Ben1962 said:
It makes a lot of sense since a guitar has frets. Its not just a random pattern
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It IS random because it doesn't follow a derivative shape --- for example, 5th fret 2nd string adjust slightly flat, but 6th fret 2md string veers waaaay sharp...and 7th is almost straight. Wth, why would that be???

Also the squiggly pattern jumps around a lot and aint fluid, suggesting that it doesn't do jack for measured bends...and of you're supposed to bend by ear, then why the hell does it even have bumps and changes in spots where no unbent string ever ventures???


IF it were meant to correct for string gauge, it'd be a repeating gradually shrinking shape patterned rpughly after the Earvana Nut.

This? This is just a bs conversation piece.
 
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Re: Am I out of tune?

Hello.

I certainly didn't mean to derail the OP's thread with this True Temperament stuff but apparently there's a little interest shown in it.

Here (below) is a comment that I copied off of a YouTube video of Steve Vai on True Temperament frets (video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uehDWQNActA). There's loads of other info. on this stuff floating around the Internet but this chap, whoever he is, kinda nails it layman's terms. And there's some other pretty good comments on the video if you scroll down the YouTube page a bit.

Steven Edelmann

I'm tired of people saying this idea isn't good. It may be the greatest innovation for the guitar since making it electric.

The way the system works is simple, and I'm going to explain it simply to you ; In todays music we use Equal Temperament. This temperament means that every semitone is 100 cents apart, making every interval that is the same quality, sound the same. This allows us to play in every key without having to retune our instruments (this goes for all instruments, piano, guitar, trumpet, flute, etc). To a person without absolute pitch (if you don't know what absolute pitch is, look it up), all the keys sound virtually the same in equal temperament.

The way that guitars are built is based on equal temperament. It tries to have every interval the same distance. However, until the True temperament freeboard, the way that the guitar's fretboards were designed only thought of one aspect: the distance of the notes. It didn't take into account the different thickness of the strings, the distance of the strings from the fretboard as they go up the neck, etc. The true temperament fretboard takes into account all these variables, and each freeboard is uniquely designed for every guitar that it is made for so that all the notes ring out at the perfect frequency (A4=440hz, A#/Bb=466.16hz, etc). This allows the guitar, for the first time, to be perfectly intonated on every fret at the same time.

That's not to say that there aren't some limitations; Because of the nature of the true temperament freeboard, only one style of tuning may be used (Standard tuning, for example). This means you can't ever tune your guitars in weird tunings and mess around without it sounding horrible out of tune (even more so that normal guitars do). However, for standard tuning, the true temperament freeboard is vastly superior to the standard fretboard of the guitar.

If you tune your guitar and play a chord, then go a few frets up the neck and play a different chord, and it sound fine to you, there are 2 possible things: One, the most likely, is that you are used to the unique sound of the guitar and how it is slightly out of tune. Two, you have a really bad ear and should train your ear on a piano keyboard (as they are always perfectly in tune you you can get used to perfect intonation).

Try this; Play a chord on a guitar with a standard fretboard. Go to a piano and play the same chord, voiced in the same way in the same octave(s). I guarantee some of the guitar notes will be slightly flat or slightly sharp. For the most part this doesn't matter as people are used to guitars being out of tune, but for people with absolute pitch (like myself) or for people with good relative pitch, and people who use the true temperament freeboard, the slight out of tune-ness is almost unbearable.

I don't understand why people don't like this system. It is truly great. The only reason you wouldn't like it is if you're a traditionalist who hates innovation. A true lover of the guitar and of music should welcome this with awe and open arms: Guitars can finally have perfect intonation! Why would anyone hate that??
Click to expand...

Not for me i.e. too much of a traditionalist (still bugs me even to have to detune to cover my favorite artist!!! LOL!!!).

And I have tuning problems on my own that True Temperament sure ain't gonna solve i.e. more often than not my lower E string is out of tune on the initial attack and it bugs the living hell out of me. But it's because I dig in and play hard (I THINK that's the reason anyway) and I constantly have to remind myself to "ease up a little" and "gently does it". Funny thing is that it's only the lower E string (and on all three of my guitars so it cannot be the guitars because they're all different). Dunno if there's a fix for this. I've tried heavier gauge strings, more springs in the FR trem., nothing. Technique I guess???

Regards,

Dale.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

^^So true temperament frets make your guitar "perfect" as far as intonation goes, but at the expense of being able to bend, adjust your action and string gauge, and having to pay oodles of money to the few and far between luthiers who actually know how to do fret work on them?

I'm going to have to disagree with Vai on this one.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

You're probably right on all counts. But I don't know enough about it to comment.

Must say he (Steve Vai) didn't look too convincing in that video either.

Probably find this is more suited to the likes of a classical guitar???
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

I think Steve was curious about what one would look like
Not so much the practicality of it
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

Chistopher said:
^^So true temperament frets make your guitar "perfect" as far as intonation goes, but at the expense of being able to bend, adjust your action and string gauge, and having to pay oodles of money to the few and far between luthiers who actually know how to do fret work on them?

I'm going to have to disagree with Vai on this one.
Click to expand...

And that's just the beginning, now your fundamentally limiting so many aspects of the flexibility of the guitar for "perfect" tuning -which STILL cannot be achieved using "True temperament"

- as finger pressure, differences in string manufacturing for each batch, string stretching, oxidation, fret board oil pickup, nut wear, fret wear, ambient temperature, humidity, degradation of the magnetic fields from proximity to other magnetic fields, tuner backlash -I could go on FOREVER and it will never be perfect.

I have really sensitive ears to pitch -and a well setup standard guitar is acceptable -so I don't see the problem as something that's needs "solved"
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

Chistopher said:
^^So true temperament frets make your guitar "perfect" as far as intonation goes, but at the expense of being able to bend, adjust your action and string gauge, and having to pay oodles of money to the few and far between luthiers who actually know how to do fret work on them?

I'm going to have to disagree with Vai on this one.
Click to expand...

I'd assume that altered tuning would also no longer be possible. No drop D, no DADGAB, no open G, no open E . . .
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

Adieu said:
It IS random because it doesn't follow a derivative shape --- for example, 5th fret 2nd string adjust slightly flat, but 6th fret 2md string veers waaaay sharp...and 7th is almost straight. Wth, why would that be???

Also the squiggly pattern jumps around a lot and aint fluid, suggesting that it doesn't do jack for measured bends...and of you're supposed to bend by ear, then why the hell does it even have bumps and changes in spots where no unbent string ever ventures???


IF it were meant to correct for string gauge, it'd be a repeating gradually shrinking shape patterned rpughly after the Earvana Nut.

This? This is just a bs conversation piece.
Click to expand...
No, it adjusts “guitar keys” on the fretboard. It’ll bring your G, C, A, E and D “into tune”. And by in tune I mean raising the 5th by 2 cents, lowering the major 3rd by 13 cents, etc. to get just intonation. Since just intonation is not possible in adjacent keys, this uses compromises and focuses on the aforementioned “guitar keys”. Playing in G# will sound horrible I bet.

However, there’s a reason you don’t see the players that can afford anything playing them. Professionals use Buzz Feiten and Earvana. I’ve never seen one of these in use other than the aforementioned Vai example. I’d still like to try one. $1000 is too steep for me for some experiments though.
 
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Re: Am I out of tune?

ehdwuld said:
It's the G
Really it is

On a LP
That's the on dragging in the slot
All that extra strang over the nut
That's right

It's the G strang
Click to expand...

Exactly. The D has this issue as well. I fixed that problem by rounding off the back corner of the nut slut facing the tuning peg. Add a little graphite (swipe a pencil a few times) in the slot. Problem solved.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

PFDarkside said:
No, it adjusts “guitar keys” on the fretboard. It’ll bring your G, C, A, E and D “into tune”. And by in tune I mean raising the 5th by 2 cents, lowering the major 3rd by 13 cents, etc. to get just intonation. Since just intonation is not possible in adjacent keys, this uses compromises and focuses on the aforementioned “guitar keys”. Playing in G# will sound horrible I bet.

However, there’s a reason you don’t see the players that can afford anything playing them. Professionals use Buzz Feiten and Earvana. I’ve never seen one of these in use other than the aforementioned Vai example. I’d still like to try one. $1000 is too steep for me for some experiments though.
Click to expand...

What costs $1000?
My local shop will install the Buzz Feiten system for $140 and an earvana nut is $40.
I’m not sure what labor etc is involved in installing the earvana but I’m sure the total would be $100 or so.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

The G# in an open-position E chord always sounds out of tune to me.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

Gtrjunior said:
What costs $1000?
My local shop will install the Buzz Feiten system for $140 and an earvana nut is $40.
I’m not sure what labor etc is involved in installing the earvana but I’m sure the total would be $100 or so.
Click to expand...

The wiggly fret neck. It’s about $1K.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

Wouldn't it be easier to use active polytune technology to pitch and phase align all the notes on the output of the guitar for PERFECT intonation? ***roll eyes***

Or hell, ya'll just go buy a damn Keytar.
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

NegativeEase said:
Wouldn't it be easier to use active polytune technology to pitch and phase align all the notes on the output of the guitar for PERFECT intonation? ***roll eyes***

Or hell, ya'll just go buy a damn Keytar.
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Good point. I wonder if there is a pitch sifter that would align the notes to just intonation. Seems really simple and much more practical than any other system out there.

And if there isn't. Why?
 
Re: Am I out of tune?

Jacew said:
Good point. I wonder if there is a pitch sifter that would align the notes to just intonation. Seems really simple and much more practical than any other system out there.

And if there isn't. Why?
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Singers can use the Autotune systems, but how would that work for guitars? Sure it would work for chords and melodies, but would it work if guitarist bends and uses the whammy bar?
 
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