AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

tman

New member
Hi this question is for all the amp techs out there reading this post.How can I re-design the power supply in my amp(100 watt Windsor)to give it more "SAG" I have a good tech that can do my work for me I just don't know what I have to do to achieve this?Can you please help me and just let me know how you do this and I can relay to him what I need parts wise?Does it need a slightly under-powered power trans? I do believe "sag" is created when your B+ voltage drops while playing is this correct?Any help at all will help thanks.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

Normally sag is associated with tube rectifiers, your Windsor has a solid state rectifier. The best way to get what you want would be to use a Weber Copper Cap module to simulate a tube rectifiers sag, much easier that retrofitting with a real tube rectifier, not to mention your power transformer may not be able to power another tube.

Something like this - http://www.tedweber.com/wfw although you may want to consult Weber or your tech to make sure you get the correct one for the Windsor, they also make another one - http://www.tedweber.com/wbr so you will want to check.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

That is awesome. When did Weber start to make a surface mounted Copper Cap.?
Says the Sag Resistor is optional,.....that is cool as well.
I was going to suggest wiring in a 10-30 Ohm power resistor, but this would be a nice, clean option.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

Couldn't changing the filter caps make a difference in that feel also? I'm certainly not an expert, but I seem to remember that being the case.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

much easier that retrofitting with a real tube rectifier,

100 Watt amp will require TWO rectifier valves, thus the power transformer will need a hefty 5 Volt winding, almost certainly requiring a new power transformer or the addition of a chunky 5V filament transformer .... assuming you can find the space to fit one. I have a thread somewhere with pics about fitting a rectifier valve into my Guyatone Fender Pro Reverb clone, which involved fitting a new power transformer. A big job that would no doubt cost quite a lot of money.

The usual, simpler method is the use of power resistors to create Voltage drops, either to the entire B+ line or just the part that feeds the plates of the power valves. These resistors will need to be large watage units, making them quite big, and they will get hot, so careful consideration needs to be applied in deciding where and how to locate them.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

100 Watt amp will require TWO rectifier valves, thus the power transformer will need a hefty 5 Volt winding, almost certainly requiring a new power transformer or the addition of a chunky 5V filament transformer .... assuming you can find the space to fit one.

Yep, that's pretty much why I pointed out the Weber Copper Cap. A resistor would probably work too, but the problem with that is that it provides a constant lower voltage, which might do the trick, but tube rectifier "sag" happens when the voltage drops then comes back up.

Would one of these work on my amp?

It should, no reason to think it wouldn't, but it will take some work to put in, much easier than a tube rectifier and extra power transformer though. That's why I mentioned that you might want to call Weber and ask, they can probably tell you exactly what you need for your amp.

As mentioned, you could always start by adding a resistor to simulate the sag, that would be the easiest solution.
 
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Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

Where would the resistor go and what value would I want to get? Thanks
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

Well...you said you have a good tech.....make sure he has a schem of your amp.
If the B- is being pulled from the same winding, he will need to adjust the power tube bias.
I would just install the Sag Resistor right where it is in an amp that uses tube diodes, or right where that Copper Cap puts it.....at the Ground or Inlet side of the rectifier. You need to 2x check my math, but with 100 Watts and about 200mA i would think a 25 watt resistor would be needed. I am talking the Aluminum screw-down type that gets heat-sinked to the chassis.
The question would be what value.?
I do not know what to tell you there. Most Tube diodes do not offer much resistance i do not THINK.....50-100 Ohms maybe.? One of these other guys will be able to tell you.
Does the RCA book list Resistance of the rectifiers, anybody know.?
good luck
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

BTW.....i suppose you could shoot an email to Weber and ask them how much resistance is built into their Copper Cap(s), or maybe That Spec is even listed on their website.?
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

I found this info about lessing the stiffness of the power supply Yes, but the Windsor has two 100uF caps on the screens (C10 and C11), which totals 200uF. The 2203's had either 50uF or 100uF - 100uF after the mid-to-late '80s and 50uF before that. If you wanted a more 2203 type of power supply response you could simply remove one of the Windsor's main caps (either C10 or C11). While you're at it, I'd solder a resistor across the remaining cap as well (across the pins on the bottom) so the cap has somewhere to drain. The Windsor has no path for the caps to drain so they can hold their charge long after the amp is turned off (the infamous "Death caps" as they were nicknamed on the pre-mid '60s amps). I used a 220k 2W resistor on both the main and screen caps.

The Peavey has 100uF on the screens as well (C12). If you leave that be it will be similar to a stock JVM or later JCM800 2203. If you want a little less stiffness you could reduce that to 47uF but you'll need a 500+V rated cap because that cap gets the full HT voltage across it in the Windsor. Either way should be "fine" but if you were fine tuning stiffness those would be the places to look.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

Couldn't changing the filter caps make a difference in that feel also? I'm certainly not an expert, but I seem to remember that being the case.

Yes. 1000%

Smaller filter caps = more sag/slop
Bigger filter caps = more stiffness

FWIW, my JTM45 has 16+16uF on the preamp and 32+32uF on the poweramp
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

I hate to say this but if your tech is really a good tech he will find all this out for you.

Changing the values of your filter caps likely will come with an increase in hum from your amp.

You do NOT need two rectifier tubes in a 100 watt amp. All a rectifier does is change AC into DC. Number of watts has nothing to do with type of rectification.

You can ask your tech to look into a London Power Power Scaling kit to install into your amp. You can get a Sag Control option and have the extra benefit of full power sound at much much lower volume.

Consider just buying an amp that has the sound you want rather than redesigning what you have.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

I dont think modifying a modern pcb constructed 100 watt amp like yours to get "sag" is a good idea at all. Here is why:
1. It was never designed for that in the first place. 100watt amps like that are built for punch and headroom. Exactly what are you hoping will happen? That it will turn into a tweed deluxe but with the roar of a jcm800? You are really trying to turn the amp into something it will never be. Let the amp sound like it was designed to sound and enjoy it, or sell it.
2. It is built on a pcb. These kinds of amps are very difficult to work on. Even just getting to the parts you need to work on is time consuming, fiddly and the construction using cheap board mounted components is notoriously fragile. What this means is that it is not an easy job for a tech to work on. Time=money. You can easily end up spending more than the amp is worth in labour time for what may or may not even get you close to your ideal sound.
3. There is no way of knowing if the mods will do what you are hoping for anyway. It is pretty invasive and there is every chance you will just neuter the amp and make it worthless.

If you want an amp that sags, or has less headroom, more spongy feel or whatever..get one. Don't try to force a square peg into a round hole.
If you really do like the jcm800 style roar of the winsdor, but just want less sheer volume, a more vintage vibe and perhaps more compression, then you would be much better off spending your money on some greenbacks. I dont know what speakers you are currently running, but grenbacks will definitely cut your volume down so you can push your tubes a bit harder. They will compress and offer a more forgiving, more old school style of tone. Dropping 3db is equivalent to dropping from 100w amp to a 50w amp. They will have less bass defined than most modern style speakers..and voltage sag is mostly noticeable when amplifying low frequencies. Low efficiency speakers with a loose low end like greenbacks will give a somewhat similar effect when being pushed hard and let's face it...you are only imagining a particular tone and feel in your head right now, at least a speaker swap is easily reversible. Greenbacks or greenback style speakers are plentiful and not particularly expensive. I'll bet that for the amount of money you are thinking of investing in tech fees and parts, you can probably buy 4 speakers. Worst case scenario is that you dont like the change, but still have four speakers that you own and can sell if need be rather than having a chinese built amp that has been totally butchered inside and has no resale value. I would bet though, that running a quad of greenbacks (or cheaper clones like wgs green berets) will get you in the ballpark of keeping the good parts of your amp tone, but changing it to a smoother looser more vintage feel that will sound killer.
 
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Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

Sell the Windsor and upgrade to a 5150 or 6505. With the "resonance" engaged, you'll have more sag than Grandmums ****.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

A resistor would probably work too, but the problem with that is that it provides a constant lower voltage,

Not in a class AB amp, which a 100-watter probably is. The fluctuating current drawn by the AB power stage causes the Voltage drop across the resistor to vary.
 
Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

It's definitely AB and I didn't give it much thought, but yes, if the current if varying, the voltage drop across the resistor would vary.
 
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Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

I dont think modifying a modern pcb constructed 100 watt amp like yours to get "sag" is a good idea at all. Here is why:
1. It was never designed for that in the first place. 100watt amps like that are built for punch and headroom. Exactly what are you hoping will happen? That it will turn into a tweed deluxe but with the roar of a jcm800? You are really trying to turn the amp into something it will never be. Let the amp sound like it was designed to sound and enjoy it, or sell it.
2. It is built on a pcb. These kinds of amps are very difficult to work on. Even just getting to the parts you need to work on is time consuming, fiddly and the construction using cheap board mounted components is notoriously fragile. What this means is that it is not an easy job for a tech to work on. Time=money. You can easily end up spending more than the amp is worth in labour time for what may or may not even get you close to your ideal sound.
3. There is no way of knowing if the mods will do what you are hoping for anyway. It is pretty invasive and there is every chance you will just neuter the amp and make it worthless.


If you want an amp that sags, or has less headroom, more spongy feel or whatever..get one. Don't try to force a square peg into a round hole.
If you really do like the jcm800 style roar of the winsdor, but just want less sheer volume, a more vintage vibe and perhaps more compression, then you would be much better off spending your money on some greenbacks. I dont know what speakers you are currently running, but grenbacks will definitely cut your volume down so you can push your tubes a bit harder. They will compress and offer a more forgiving, more old school style of tone. Dropping 3db is equivalent to dropping from 100w amp to a 50w amp. They will have less bass defined than most modern style speakers..and voltage sag is mostly noticeable when amplifying low frequencies. Low efficiency speakers with a loose low end like greenbacks will give a somewhat similar effect when being pushed hard and let's face it...you are only imagining a particular tone and feel in your head right now, at least a speaker swap is easily reversible. Greenbacks or greenback style speakers are plentiful and not particularly expensive. I'll bet that for the amount of money you are thinking of investing in tech fees and parts, you can probably buy 4 speakers. Worst case scenario is that you dont like the change, but still have four speakers that you own and can sell if need be rather than having a chinese built amp that has been totally butchered inside and has no resale value. I would bet though, that running a quad of greenbacks (or cheaper clones like wgs green berets) will get you in the ballpark of keeping the good parts of your amp tone, but changing it to a smoother looser more vintage feel that will sound killer.

Great idea to introduce "Sag" via your transducers. Might i suggest that the very best value for that course of action cost/value wise is the venerable 'Eminence Legend'. Great for everything from a Bassman to a high gain 6505.

Also use tubes with a higer headroom dynamic.

Last but not least you can get considerably more "sag" with a dedicated pro ported enclosure.
 
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Re: AMP TECH HELP TO CREATE MORE "SAG"

Also use tubes with a higer headroom dynamic.

:bigthumb: Simple & it works. Just about any kind of "feel" adjustment can be brought about by changing tubes...that includes preamp tubes as well. Sometimes just changing the order/position will do the trick.

I like high gain amps with a bit of sag ...adds dynamics, and "chunk".
 
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