And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

NegativeEase- Well, aside from the intonation discussion, thank you for posting that Yes video! (And, now that you mention it, I do remember playing that bit before, and thinking, "Hm, that sounds off" -and now the intonation lesson is driven home. Bravo!)
Anyway, Yes is one of the bands I grew up on, those earlier albums of theirs are masterpieces. Good stuff, thanks again! :clap:
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I'll have to check the 24th fret thing when I get home, ~40 years, and I can't say I've paid that much attention to those frets.

I don't disagree that his method is probably much better, and his ears are probably better too, mine seem to be getting worse, but I'm sure I earned it in my younger, stack playing/concert going days.

See Dale, the you thing wasn't directed at you ;-) (sorry, couldn't help myself! but yes, I'm paranoid after dating someone years ago that thought everything was directed at them coupled with a raging temper, I'm still scarred)

Hey!!!!!! Were you dating my wife behind my back????

As far as hearing... Im 80 percent deaf.. When I was a teenager, always played my music loud. Everyone was like "you are going to go deaf playing it that loud". I was like, No, I play it loud cuz Im about deaf...

Then my mother always told me I would go blind... But thats another topic. hahahahahahaha
Sorry, couldnt help it....
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

People pay me to not play. I am like the Sid Vicious of the guitar.

LOL!! Yeah, they pay me to quit..

Funny how they always say the Pistols couldnt play. But their music is popular and Steve Jones wasnt bad.. IMO, Sid's playing wasnt bad.. fit the music
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Sid was never on the finished Pistols tracks. Steve Jones either recorded or overdubbed the bass parts.
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I'm coming to a belief about intonation at the high frets...

Yes, they can be a pain to dial in just right. And yes, thicker strings cause me more issues than the thinner ones. But (1) why play D on the 22nd fret of Low E (unless that's just all you got) so who cares if the low strings are off by a few cents up top, and (2) when working your way up the neck - or even JUMPING up the neck - it's a gradual slight loss of tuning that really takes a trained ear to notice, and (3) GREAT PLAYING HIDES MINOR INTONATION ISSUES.

Want to fix your intonation up top...??? Play better and no one will care.
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

So you spend thusands on gear to obtain that holy grail of tone but entrust a 20-dollar plastic cheapo with your tuning...
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

My Gretsch just has a bar bridge. I’m screwed. But I’m rockin’
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Good morning. And how is everyone this fine morning???


So you spend thusands on gear to obtain that holy grail of tone but entrust a 20-dollar plastic cheapo with your tuning...
My tuner cost $250 USD thank you very much (exchange rate converted of course but in just looking around looks like I got ripped somewhat so let's say $90 USD shall we)!!! LOL!!! It's a TC Electronics PolyTune 2 Noir. Now although I hardly ever use the PolyTune "feature": I make the assumption that it's capable of detecting or compensating for this "inharmonicity" phenomenon. But we will see shortly I guess i.e. going to start testing the intonation instructions posted as well as try out my shortcut as proposed and will report back obviously.


I'm coming to a belief about intonation at the high frets...

Yes, they can be a pain to dial in just right. And yes, thicker strings cause me more issues than the thinner ones. But (1) why play D on the 22nd fret of Low E (unless that's just all you got) so who cares if the low strings are off by a few cents up top, and (2) when working your way up the neck - or even JUMPING up the neck - it's a gradual slight loss of tuning that really takes a trained ear to notice, and (3) GREAT PLAYING HIDES MINOR INTONATION ISSUES.

Want to fix your intonation up top...??? Play better and no one will care.
Nah. Disagree with you for once. We all know that the only way you're going to get "perfect" intonation across the entire fretboard is if you have a guitar with those "True Temperament" frets (http://www.truetemperament.com/). But this should not stop you from at least trying to get your intonation as "perfect" as possible.

And yeh: I suppose if you only play at or below the 12th fret with the occasional burst above it then a little bit of technique will allow you to busk your way through and probably nobody will notice. Matter of fact I've read somewhere that our ears actually do not, in fact, "like" everything to be in perfect tune??? But whatever the case: I'm trying something that's, up until now been, way above my "pay grade" or "comfort zone" and that's an entire part of a solo very high up the fretboard. Now while fast runs and bends may mask slight intonation problems: when I sustain the fretted note on the high E at the 24th fret it's flat and this is audible.

Anyways. Let's face it: it's worth the learning experience if nothing else. My fingers are still raw from yesterday so it's not like I've got anything better to do right now (sad thing to admit huh!!! LOL!!!).


Intonation is one of those tricky things. Set it right for the 12th fret, and you have a sliding scale of inaccuracy the further you go either way.......but with greater problems at the nut typically. So you tend to make a choice as to whether you want it to play more in tune lower, or higher. The lower your action is, the more you can get it to be accurate all the way along the fretboard.
People who like higher action like myself, and like the 1st-12th to be more intune for chords, find that without fallaway in the upper frets the upper notes tend to be more flat.
Dunno if you read that entire article??? But that's the basic premise of it really. The idea really is to get your intonation as close as possible "on average" across the entire fretboard.

I also think it depends on where you're "at" i.e. in my case (in most cases???) lifting the action would probably solve the problem (because the notes above the 12th fret are going progressively flat). But I don't wanna do that i.e. Jackson's factory defaults are pretty high as it is but I like it like this because you can sound notes easily without actually having to pick.

...

A thought before I begin:

In just thinking about this there's probably a shortcut to my shortcut!!! LOL!!! May as well set the neck dead flat to begin with, adjust the action, intonate the 24th fret, and see where the 12th fret intonation is at that point. If intonating the 12th fret at that point is going to necessitate tightening the truss rod even further then there's no point in going further i.e. you'd be backbowing the neck.

(Last paragraph substantially edited for those that received the original via email).
 
Last edited:
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Oh and for the benefit of those that couldn't be ars*d to actually mosey on over to the actual thread on Sound On Sound there's another very good post there on the same thread that addresses possible intonation problems but that are caused by possible construction issues. I don't believe I'm dealing with such issues (these are Jacksons after all!!! LOL!!!) but for the sake of completeness and reference here's the post:

Hi Tony,

To a large extent, anything above the 14th fret is beyond the proper range of the guitar. So while it is possible to play up the dusty end, you are pushing the limits once you get that far. A good rule of thumb is to assume that the highest frets are there for decoration until proven otherwise.

First of all, the tone will get a lot thinner once you get to that part of the neck. Due to the way guitars work. Heavier gauge strings could improve things, but there will always be a some loss in that area. And heavier strings will make the intonation problems worse.

If you do play a lot in that part of the neck you might compensate by looking at your amp and FX. Maybe try a treble booster and/or a compressor.

With the intonation, there are a few possibilities to consider. But it is unlikely that a set-up alone will be sufficient to solve the problem.

Starting with the worst case, it is possible that the higher frets are in the wrong place. In that part of the neck half a millimetre makes a big difference. Mass produced fretboards are usually made with a multiple blade table saw. All the slots are cut in a single pass, and there is no guarantee off accuracy.

The next worst case is that the top of the fretboard is deliberately ramped away from the strings once you reach the neck/body join. Effectively increasing the action progressively as you get to the higher frets. And as the action increases, you have to stretch the string further to fret it, and the intonation gets progressively sharper. Manufacturers do this because it saves a lot of time in final set up. By getting those frets out of the way it's a lot easier to get a reasonable set up for the first octave very quickly.

Next is that the neck has developed a hump where it joins the body. That has a similar result to the ramped fretboard.

Finally, the width of the fret itself can cause problems. If it isn't properly crowned it can move the intonation sharp or flat. And if the crown is worn flat it will move the intonation sharp.

Even a good set up won't address any of these issues. So you need a skilled and experienced luthier, and it won't be cheap. In fact, I would go as far as saying that if someone offers to do it cheap they either don't know what they are doing, or they are doing you a big favour. Make sure it is the latter.

If the frets are totally in the wrong place the most likely solution is a replacement fretboard properly fretted. There is an outside chance that the frets are wide enough to be re-profiled with a tall crown on the nut side. Very difficult even for someone very skilled in fret work, but a possibility if they have a Plek machine as that uses a special cutter to shape the crown. They can put your guitar on the machine and it will measure whether or not your guitar can be made to intonate accurately for the full scale.

If the fretting is accurate, but there is a ramp or hump, it is possible to remove the frets, level the fretboard, and refret with new wire. There are some manufacturers who offer guitars with narrower fretwire above the 12th fret. Any decent luthier would be able to offer the same for you. I've written a tool to calculate fret positions dividing the Octave into any number of frets, for a future project I plan to build a guitar fretted for 1/4 tones (24 frets per octave) using fat fret wire for the semitones and skinny wire for the quartertones in between (as an aid to navigation).

Basically, a decent luthier will be able to get your guitar eminently playable above the 12th fret. But it will take a lot of skilled work.

If playing at the dusty end is important to your music you might be better off searching out a guitar that is already very accurately fretted in that area and then considering getting further work done by an expert to fine tune it.

Good luck getting it sorted, and I hope that helps

Andy
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Well in true "Dale style" I've managed to discover an anomaly and intonated myself into a corner!!! LOL!!!

Explain this:

I checked the intonation AGAIN (using the usual method i.e. 12th fret harmonic, open string, and fretted note at the 12th fret all in tune with each other) before starting. I then checked the tuning of the fretted notes for each string at the 24th fret and the high E was flat as was D by around 0.5 cents (if I'm reading my tuner right). The other strings were flat by by only 0.1 cents at the 24th fret. So for my first experiment I simply adjusted the saddles for the high E and D so that the fretted note on the 24th fret for these two strings was in tune. And here's the corker: without adjusting ANYTHING else the tuning for these two strings was 0.1 cents out when fretted at the 12th fret!!!

So I decided to take this a little further. I ensured that the open string and fretted note at the 24th fret were in tune (by moving saddles only) and dead on "tuned" i.e. 0 cents off. And guess what??? The tuning of the fretted note at the 12th fret is no more than 0.1 cents off (two of the strings are not out at all). 0.1 cents cannot be heard I don't think and, for all I know, the slightest difference in pressure while playing will compensate anyway (let's face it: once you know your guitar you do compensate while playing even although it may be done subconsciously).

So from the above here's a possible alternate method for setting intonation (which, it would seem, also averages out any anomalies). This is what I've done:

  1. Neck relief and action were set to Jackson factory specs.
  2. Ensured that the open strings and fretted notes at the 24th fret were in tune 100% simply by moving only the saddles.
  3. In my case and at this point: the fretted notes at the 12th fret were a maximum of 0.1 cents out.
  4. Should yours be a little more out at the 12th fret then slightly adjust neck relief or action to compensate (I didn't have to do this i.e. for 0.1 cents out I'm not loosening strings, removing truss rod cover, and the rest).
In short: this guitar is no more than 0.1 cents out anywhere on the fretboard (and this only as you approach the 12th fret from either side).

Frankly: I've no idea how or why this works. But evidently it does. There's really not that many variables that would enable me to muck up to the extent where what I'm posting is junk or pure luck.

So at this point I've not yet tried this new fandangled method of setting intonation that I posted in my first post. But it will be interesting to see now if, on this guitar, and as things stand now, there is a difference between the tuner and what I can hear using the method described in the first post (using adjacent strings).

Thoughts???

P.S.

Trying to get my head around this one i.e. would this work on a guitar that has a different number of frets e.g. 22??? I ask this because with 22 frets you don't have three full octaves??? I don't have a guitar with 22 frets to test this on. My Blaze is still 24 frets i.e. just a shorter scale length.
 
Last edited:
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I 100% agree with the OP.
Huh??? I'm the OP!!! LOL!!!


100 bucks this 'inharmonicity' problem will end up like that Vivian thread again.
Well if you want to discuss "inharmonicity" for the next fifteen pages then feel free i.e. I'll oblige no problem!!! LOL!!! Me: I've got pretty much "perfectly" intonated guitars so I'm good no matter where the thread takes us!!! LOL!!!

...

But alright... Let's see... "I-N-H-A-R-M-O-N-I-C-I-T-Y"... Now "Inharmonicity" is...

P.S.

Oh here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Want to fix your intonation up top...??? Play better and no one will care.

Ha, this is true, plus by nature, people who buy tuners and care about intonation generally are aspiring musicians or musicians with an improving, trained or natural ear.

-fact is, the overwhelming majority of the public who come to listen to live music, can't hear intonation issues, aren't bothered by them, and are enjoying the hell out of themselves despite me being on stage pissed that my G string is 1 cent sharp at the 17th fret :lmao:

Despite this, I have a really sensitive ear issue with intonation and much keep waging this war against acceptable imperfection.
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Huh??? I'm the OP!!! LOL!!!



Well if you want to discuss "inharmonicity" for the next fifteen pages then feel free i.e. I'll oblige no problem!!! LOL!!! Me: I've got pretty much "perfectly" intonated guitars so I'm good no matter where the thread takes us!!! LOL!!!

...

But alright... Let's see... "I-N-H-A-R-M-O-N-I-C-I-T-Y"... Now "Inharmonicity" is...

P.S.

Oh here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity

I just mean that all those questions about intonation are pretty darn valid, but usually when we play as another member noted, we must be very luck to fret correctly and 100% accurately.
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

As I said: I’m usually nowhere near there myself. But while I was working out a SCALE run for something (he says tongue in cheek) I ended up on the high E at the 24th fret and noticed the tuning while sustaining the note.

Doubt I would notice that note being slightly out by itself, I would probably need a reference note playing at the same time. If I did notice it out for either reason, I'd probably just give it a little bend/wiggle.
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Nah. Disagree with you for once. We all know that the only way you're going to get "perfect" intonation across the entire fretboard is if you have a guitar with those "True Temperament" frets (http://www.truetemperament.com/). But this should not stop you from at least trying to get your intonation as "perfect" as possible.

Everyone usually ends up doing that at some point, so there should be a user group developing around here somewhere with my name on it that I don't know about! Go ahead and sign up...!!! They tell me it's fun when that happens...!!!

My understanding of the "broken fret" fretboard deal is that it's all about microtones and the related "music from India," or else THIS (which I think is crap)...


...So, we all need to PUT OUR GUITARS OUT OF TUNE so that the harmonics resonate better!!! Maybe for some styles of music, but even then I question it. The fundamental note takes tonal precedence, PERIOD!!!

Here's a guitar setup tip for perfect intonation...

(1) The longer the SCALE LENGTH, the better the intonation will be.

(2) The higher the TUNING of the guitar, the better the intonation will be. Meaning that low-pitcher alternate tuning is harder to intonate.

(3) The THINNER THE GAUGE OF STRINGS, the better the intonation will be. (9's will intonate better than 11's...!!!)

(4) The LOWER THE ACTION of the strings, the better the intonation will be.

If you want "perfect" intonation, and standard tuning, then go with 8's on a 25.5" scale that are hugging the frets.

Here's another thought...

Tune/intonate for the part of the fretboard that you play the most (fret 1 vs fret 22); or else "overcompensate" just a tad so that it's a TINY bit off on the bottom end, and a TINY bit off the other way at the top end.
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

There's two issues being conflated in this thread.

The "major thirds are always slightly out of tune" issue is a different issue than inharmonicity.

The western music scale is flawed in that it's based on the idea that an octave represents a 2:1 ratio in frequency, a perfect fifth a 3:2 ratio in frequency, and a major third a ratio of 5:4 in frequency. If you actually try to tune this way, you'll find... it doesn't work. Twelve perfect fifths in this system doesn't give you the same note as seven octaves, like it should. If you tune an entire instrument to 3:2 fifths, you'll find that both the octaves are out AND the major thirds are really dissonant. This has been "solved" with equal temperament, a system of tuning that makes notes all throughout the scale equally out-of-tune. There's no way to fix this other than either using a tuning system that only allows you to play in one key, or by abandoning frets entirely.

It's worth noting that "true temperament" runs headlong into this problem; its temperament is designed to make the cowboy chords and standard blues progressions sound in-tune, at the expense of anything that isn't that. Anyone who says they can solve the guitar's tuning and intonation issues in a way that isn't "go fretless, and control the intonation with your fingers and ears" is selling you snake oil.

Inharmonicity is a different thing, and it's a thing not worth worrying about unless you're using really thick strings on a short-scale instrument. It's not always even undesirable; that wonderful "rudeness" of a shorter scale guitar like a Les Paul or a Jaguar is a slight increase in inharmonicity. Also, most other instruments you're going to be playing with are tuning based on the fundamental, not the harmonics, so if you want to play with anyone else (provided that "anyone else" isn't a woodwind instrument, which unless there's someone here in a Jethro Tull cover band, I expect is all of you), you need to follow suit.
 
Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I've always thought higher pitches sound better when tuned in by ear than tuner. When I tune by ear and check with tuner high strings always end up increasingly sharp.

Interesting to hear it wasn't just my ear fooling me.
 
Back
Top