And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

It's worth noting that "true temperament" runs headlong into this problem; its temperament is designed to make the cowboy chords and standard blues progressions sound in-tune, at the expense of anything that isn't that. Anyone who says they can solve the guitar's tuning and intonation issues in a way that isn't "go fretless, and control the intonation with your fingers and ears" is selling you snake oil.

This I didn't know. The other thing about those true temperament frets (aside from the aesthetics that is) is that the general consensus seems to be that it'd be impossible to bend in tune??? And in all the videos on the Internet about them you'll notice that everyone stays away from bending (including Mr. Steve Vai who appears to be a proponent of these things)!!!

For those of you who don't know about these (horrible looking) things how'd you like to play on this:

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I think the better solution is for everyone to join a 2 guitar band with >100watt stacks and an SVT -play out for a few years and then that Major 3rd annoyance wont bother your ears near as much.....

 

[Gransen]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

This I didn't know. The other thing about those true temperament frets (aside from the aesthetics that is) is that the general consensus seems to be that it'd be impossible to bend in tune??? And in all the videos on the Internet about them you'll notice that everyone stays away from bending (including Mr. Steve Vai who appears to be a proponent of these things)!!!

For those of you who don't know about these (horrible looking) things how'd you like to play on this:

View attachment 95888

View attachment 95889

Cynical made an excellent post talking about the shortcomings of trying to find "perfect tune / perfect intonation." The shortcomings are found in the way that notes are spaced apart: the 12th root of 2. It creates a logarithmic curve that we can see on our fretboards when we look at the spacing between them. But the fretboard can't follow that curve exactly...because the logarithm just won't stop happening...!!!

What I've been told is that the human ear just isn't sensitive enough to detect this issue on a well-tuned guitar. The problem exists on a well-tuned guitar, but we can't hear it once the music starts...

 

[devastone]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I checked my 24th frets with a tuner this weekend, my intonation was right on at the 12th and if anything, about 1/2 cent sharp at the 24th, so plenty good enough for me.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I am blessed (although it can be a curse) with excellent hearing. Matter of fact I believe it to be above average. And I’m really not trying to be facetious nor am I boasting here. And this along with my talent does enable me to hear things that possibly would not phase other people. And fortunately for me my hearing does not seem to be deteriorating with age (“touch wood” as they say). I know for a fact that I can hear something that is “off” starting from about 0.5 (maybe even less) cents I’d say (with a reference tone of course).

I suppose being anal about tuning and sound quality in general are also a factors. Some years ago I bought two Samick PA systems. They had some type of distortion as well as a high pitched whine but nobody else, including the salesman and a rep. from Samick, could hear what I was talking about. One of them actually said to me “Your ears are finally fu*ked China” (which was hilarious at the time because of the way he looked at me and the way he said it at the time i.e. one of those moments you always remember). Anyway. Samick took them back to the factory and tested them with test equipment and it turned out that I was quite right and it was the result of an incorrect component being used for the design. They replaced (apparantely on all new units from that point) and the things were perfect for years after that. And this just one example. Have had heated debates re: sampling rates i.e. the old “can you hear the difference between 192kHz or 384kHz and 44.1kHz) (and not something I’d like to revisit really).

But I do understand the limitations of our standard fretting system and it doesn’t bother me but I am anal about intonation and tuning. Not so anal that I need True Temperament frets though I’ll tell ya!!! LOL!!! Suppose if they didn’t look so ghastly then maybe. But I’m too much of a “traditionalist” so that’s the trade off I guess.

 

[devastone]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Apparently you did not play loud enough and attend enough loud concerts when you were young! I'm pretty sure I did, I have trouble sometimes now days. But yes, you are in a minority. I used to work for a guy that could hear the PWM holding current on some servo motor mechanisms we were working on, the PWM frequency was around 20K (yes, a bad choice to start with because it was too close to audible frequencies). The rest of us couldn't hear it at all.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I would argue you are looking for a solution to something that is not a problem. Every piece of music that has ever moved you was recorded with a "flawed" guitar.

Create something that moves you and no one will care about the tuning.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

There’s no problem. My guitars are in good shape. Just glad I noticed and sorted the two problem strings out really. But still keen to try the fancy intonation method described. Maybe when I put the next set of strings on.

@devastone. Unfortunately you are quite right i.e. never got to go to concerts because none of my acts would come here!!! LOL!!! Only seen Evanescence and Seether here. Missed the one or two big acts that have come here. And nowadays we get thrown the “scraps” anyway (Judas Priest being an exception of course but don’t like them enough anymore to have warranted the crowds). But yeh. My spots in my studio are DMX controlled and have circuit boards that make a quiet whine and I can hear that too (nobody else can).

Glad about your guitar. Glad you tested it. Yeh. Close enough (I guess!!! LOL!!!).

 

[Gransen]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I know for a fact that I can hear something that is “off” starting from about 0.5 (maybe even less) cents I’d say (with a reference tone of course).

That's my thinking in regards to intonation...when moving up the fretboard, you lose that reference tone, so it sounds just fine. When playing lead along with a rhythm guitar, the rigs often have a different enough tone that any reference tone that could be made by another guitar gets lost in the tonal differences between the rigs.

Thicker strings intonate worse...thus, bigger adjustments need to be made. Lower tuning does the same. Put 'em together, and now those tonal changes can be more noticeable to the average person even without a reference point. Thus, my opinion changes when that happens. And then I'm not using that guitar to play lead, but sticking down low with the rhythm instead.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Tell you one thing for fun: the fact that we, with floating tremolo systems, are actually able to make music that’s pleasing to the ear and in tune is a miracle in and of itself. Anyone ever checked the tuning (with an accurate tuner) of an open string while fretting another two or three strings with a FR??? LOL!!! This but one of the reasons I now have four springs in my guitars as it minimizes the effect to the point where it’s negligible. Would put a fifth but it makes the trem. just that little bit too stiff for my liking and makes string bending just that little bit more painful than it needs to be.

But as I’ve noted already: I know that eventually we all do learn to compensate for all these little anomalies with our technique i.e. it just comes natural, eventually, after a few seconds of picking up each individual guitar. But of course the better your intonation and tuning the less compensation is required.

Of course and on the other hand I’ve heard dudes playing very expensive and well made guitars that are perfectly setup and with “perfect” intonation and tuning and they’re out of tune because of their lack of technique and, dare I say, talent (worst part is that they think it sounds fine!!! LOL!!!).

 

[Gransen]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Tell you one thing for fun: the fact that we, with floating tremolo systems, are actually able to make music that’s pleasing to the ear and in tune is a miracle in and of itself. Anyone ever checked the tuning (with an accurate tuner) of an open string while fretting another two or three strings with a FR??? LOL!!! This but one of the reasons I now have four springs in my guitars as it minimizes the effect to the point where it’s negligible. Would put a fifth but it makes the trem. just that little bit too stiff for my liking and makes string bending just that little bit more painful than it needs to be.

But as I’ve noted already: I know that eventually we all do learn to compensate for all these little anomalies with our technique i.e. it just comes natural, eventually, after a few seconds of picking up each individual guitar. But of course the better your intonation and tuning the less compensation is required.

Of course and on the other hand I’ve heard dudes playing very expensive and well made guitars that are perfectly setup and with “perfect” intonation and tuning and they’re out of tune because of their lack of technique and, dare I say, talent (worst part is that they think it sounds fine!!! LOL!!!).

Three springs, deck 'em, and use bends instead, and only whammy for dives. That's my philosophy. And that philosophy doesn't work for everyone. Then they have to deal with all of those issues with a floating trem that I prefer to avoid.

My Ibanez S670 was bought with a floating Edge Zero II. Whole thing looks cool, had to have it. The trem is floating, and looks like a pig's b-hole decked. I use it for sludge metal rhythm guitar in B Standard...no whammy dives, not much string bending at all.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

A little secret: I hardly ever actually use my trems.!!! LOL!!! But I would never find it in myself to buy a guitar without one as it wouldn’t be “authentic ‘80’s superstrat”. Pointed headstocks (like my beloved Jacksons) without FR trems. and a whammy bar jiggling about just look “wrong”!!! LOL!!!

 

[Gransen]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

A little secret: I hardly ever actually use my trems.!!! LOL!!! But I would never find it in myself to buy a guitar without one as it wouldn’t be “authentic ‘80’s superstrat”. Pointed headstocks (like my beloved Jacksons) without FR trems. and a whammy bar jiggling about just look “wrong”!!! LOL!!!

No, yeah, you're right!!! I still feel like when I say, "fixed bridge" I have to add, "...you know, because I'm more into rhythm guitar and string bending instead of dives."

BTW, you do not own ONE SINGLE "authentic 80's Jackson superstrat" unless you've got long hair, spandex pants, a tank top, some eye liner, and bandannas f'ing EVERYWHERE. In fact, I'll argue that you can have a fixed bridge at that point...!!!

 

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

...unless you've got long hair, spandex pants, a tank top, some eye liner, and bandannas...!

All can and shall (with the exception of a bandanna) be arranged if that’s what it takes!!! LOL!!!

You forgot the long earring (left side only of course)...

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Imagine what would happend if guitar players had hearing like a cat or dog....or a bat....
Oh no I can't play this....it is out of tune everywhere!

And music is the worst noise in the whole world...

 

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

@Obsessive Compulsive.

Yeh. I received the thread subscription email notification of your post that's now deleted and which I'll not quote here because as far as I know that's an unwritten forum rule and a courtesy to members who post and may then change their minds about their post. Unless of course you yourself didn't delete it in which case I'd think nice before you lay into other forum members from this point onward.

But I'll say this: your interest in my "pointless threads" never ceases to amaze. And up until now I've not joined other forum members who have taken you to task thinking, that because you were pretty decent to me on one of my other threads at one point, you were merely just trying to get a rise out of forum members for the fun of it. Clearly now this is not the case.

Sooner or later you're going to upset a forum veteran or somebody more important than I. Only a matter of time...

(And please don't anybody go commenting on this post or adding to it i.e. it's not worth it and my intention is to not start trouble or a discussion about a fellow forum member).

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

@Obsessive Compulsive.

Yeh. I received the thread subscription email notification of your post that's now deleted and which I'll not quote here because as far as I know that's an unwritten forum rule and a courtesy to members who post and may then change their minds about their post. Unless of course you yourself didn't delete it in which case I'd think nice before you lay into other forum members from this point onward.

But I'll say this: your interest in my "pointless threads" never ceases to amaze. And up until now I've not joined other forum members who have taken you to task thinking, that because you were pretty decent to me on one of my other threads at one point, you were merely just trying to get a rise out of forum members for the fun of it. Clearly now this is not the case.

Sooner or later you're going to upset a forum veteran or somebody more important than I. Only a matter of time...

(And please don't anybody go commenting on this post or adding to it i.e. it's not worth it and my intention is to not start trouble or a discussion about a fellow forum member).

Don't flatter yourself. No interest, absolutely. It's just my habit casually clicking threads with the most recent update as I work on my computer. Moving on...

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Don't flatter yourself. No interest, absolutely. It's just my habit casually clicking threads with the most recent update as I work on my computer. Moving on...

but is the Avatar meant to be ironic?

 

[dpaterson]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

Clicking on links is one thing. Blatantly insulting other forum members is another thing altogether. But yeh. Moving on...

Just a little bit of possibly pertinent info.:

Amplitude 4 has probably one of the most accurate tuners just by the way (may be the only thing that it’s good for though!!! LOL!!!). I totally forgot about it until today. Not sure if it’s available in the free version but could be worth a look for some.

 

[Diego]

Re: And you thought you knew how to intonate your guitar...

I set my intonation with open string, fretted 12th plus visits to the 5th-7th and 15th-17th range to average things out a bit. I genuinely can't be asked to bother any further. At best I'd remain a perfectly in tune ****ty guitar player anyway!