Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Little Pigbacon
  • Start date Start date
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Yes, and I am curious as to how the different tube designs make use of these factors. Or more specifically, what was the reason behind the engineering that resulted in the different designs and their subsequently different tone characteristics.
I don't necessarily expect these questions to be answered in this thread.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Most of the variations in tube designs came from military requirement perspective back in the old days IMO I think amp builders would be the ones to answer this well since their designs are built around using specific tubes for particular tonal outcomes. There's probably a book written on this documenting the findings.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

There a lot of variables:

The size and shape of the components.
The spacing of the components.
The alignment of the components.
The alloys and materials used.
The quality of the coatings used.
The temperature properties of the components and the glass.
The softness or hardness of the vacuum.
I'm sure I left something out.

I would think you got most all of it. :)
I think what matters most to players would be, as you say, the Size/Spacing/Materiel Make Up that effects Miller Capacitance at the tube grid input.
And then the construction quality itself that deals with micro-phonics...or rather the Lack Of It. :)
The tubes themselves should not have a Sound/Tone of their own. You would have to match preamp tubes (in a specific amp) before you could even begin
to pass some kind of meaningful judgement.
I would suggest leaving Tube Rolling and capacitor Color/Material tone miracles for multi page discussions on The Gear Page ...and concentrate more on playing, practice, guitar set-up, and having 3-4-5 very different speakers on hand. Tubes and Output Transformers never seemed like a worthy time investment to me...other than making sure they are working to spec. :)
But whatever.....this will all be talked to death over and over again.
best
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Yes, and I am curious as to how the different tube designs make use of these factors. Or more specifically, what was the reason behind the engineering that resulted in the different designs and their subsequently different tone characteristics.
I don't necessarily expect these questions to be answered in this thread.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


There are the different properties among triodes, pentodes, beam tetrodes, kinkless tetrodes if you don't might a bit of technical mumble jumble.

Triodes are used for preamp tubes and sometimes for power tubes. A triode only has three elements not counting the heater filaments: the anode (plate), the control grid and the cathode. Triodes produce a warm sound with even order harmonics when pushed into distortion.

Tetrodes. A tetrode adds an additional grid (actually a spiral helix of very fine wire) called a screen grid. The screen grid prevents spurious movements of electrons to and from the three main elements of the plate, control grid, and cathode when there is a large voltage swing on the plates. This reduces capacitance within the tube and makes the controlled, and wanted, movements of electrons more efficient. A triode will only produce about 1/2 to 2/3 as much power as a similar tetrode because with a triode the anode current is very dependent on the anode voltage. I know a lot of engineering speak but the bottom line is that a tetrode produces more power and sounds more punchy than a triode.

Pentodes. But tetrodes had a problem called the "kink". The kink was a kink in the curve of graph that plotted the relationship between anode voltage and the resulting anode current. This resulted in a nasty distortion artifact. The kink or distortion was caused by electrons jumping off the anode to the screen grid at the time the valve turns on and off with each cycle of the waveform. The solution was another grid (also another spiral helix of a special fine wire) called the suppressor grid.* The suppressor grid suppressed this unwanted electron jumping over to the screen grid. Thus the five main elements of the pentode: cathode, control grid, anode, screen grid, and suppressor grid.

Beam tetrode: Pentode tubes were the invention of Philips, a Dutch tube company, and they held the patent. Nobody else could legal build pentodes or at least call them pentodes with the exception of Mullard in England. Mullard was own by Philips. British engineers invented the beam tetrode as an alternative but didn't have the factory capability of building them properly. So RCA, which could build them, in the USA started building beam tetrodes for their British partners. This tube was the 6L6 introduced in 1933. The beam tetrode used a pair of beam forming plates to direct the beam of electrons past the screen grid in place of the suppressor grid as used in a pentode. Functionally the beam forming plates did the same thing as a pentode's suppressor grid, but by a different method. Other British companies couldn't legally call their own versions of beam tetrodes beam tetrodes, so they called them kinkless tetrodes or KTs.

There are some differences in terms of how they act in a guitar amp. A beam tetrode still has a little bit of kink compared to a pentode. This means that in practice a pentode, such as an EL34 or an EL84 will have more midrange complexity and detail. They also seem to drive easier making the amp seem to respond more quickly to subtle playing techniques.

Beam tetrodes produce less third order harmonic distortion than pentodes do when pushed, and with a stronger 2nd order harmonic, however. ( Triodes or triode connection yield the strongest 2nd order harmonics among tubes.)

* The number of turns, and the pitch of the turns, and so forth of these fine wire helix grids do effect the tone. Another factor is the material these wires are made from, such as molybdenum, thoriated tungsten, barium oxide coated...??

Grids are usually spiral helixes of very fine wire.
Cathodes are usually a small metal tube with a special coating in sound tubes. usually right in the center of the whole array.
Plates or anodes are metal plates with a special coating making the outside of the array.
Beam forming plates are made from metal plates and usually placed right inside the anode plates.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

the V1 is key. for more gain get 12AX7/ECC83. for less use 81. for brands, check the site reviews. last i checked EH 83s were rich and harmonic. mullard EL-34s are pretty much epic for marshalls.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

I'm curious as to the physics of why one tube type sounds different from another.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

i had all kinds of tube amps and basically the bigger the bottle, the more bottom end and headroom. that's why metal guys love the big 5881 or 6L6 or KTs. clear and chestpounding bottom end. i prefer the more midrange (skinnier and taller) EL-34 for the in your face british mid range sound. the sound of a cranked up EL-34 is epic..the power tube saturation is where the magic is.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

the V1 is key. for more gain get 12AX7/ECC83. for less use 81. for brands, check the site reviews. last i checked EH 83s were rich and harmonic. mullard EL-34s are pretty much epic for marshalls.
FYI, JJ's makes a medium gain ECC83.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Not a topic that I find interesting in the least.
It's easy to worry too much about details. Time is better spent playing the crap out of everything.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

It interests me somewhat. There are limits to the expense and weirdness I'm willing to endure in order to procure tubes. But I'd like to play around with it and have some fun.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Sometimes it helps to ask around to see what other people are into. The catch is you'll get so many different opinions it's overwhelming, so the trick is to look for trends.

Myself, with Mesa's I've grown to like an amp loaded with a Tung Sol 6L6 in the V1 and the remainder filled with JJ ECC83s.

JJs have a good midrange push, but tend to sound dull and all JJs produces a "blanket over the cab" effect.

EHX and Tung Sol have better top end, but can get a little cold/scooped/industrial sounding I use enough of them.

Using an EHX or Tung Sol in the V1 gives the JJs some much needed top end, and the JJs help fill out the mids.

I like the stock Mesa 6L6s, which are similar to TAD 6L6GC-STRs.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Learning about tubes = A lot of money at one time or a lot of money over the long term. Even then, all you know is what works best for you in a particular piece of gear. Change gear, and spend money again.

Or, you can just play the damned thing.

Same for pickups, same for pedals, etc. That is why gear vendors LOVE to say "it is a never ending journey".... :(
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

I'm still pretty much a novice when it comes to tubes. I've done a token amount of tube swapping. I retubed my TSL100 only once while I owned it, and all I did was buy EHX 12AX7's and the quartet of Groove Tubes EL34's that the local store had in stock.

I'm bewildered by the variety of tubes available and all the conflicting information and opinions out there. Every brand has the full gamut of reviews from glowing to abysmal. How does one become wise in the ways of valves?
Just recently changed all tubes in a Blues Jr to JJs. Huge change from stock...gainier, grainier, livelier....a lot of iers!
Got mine from thetubestore.com
which has very solid assessment of all major brands and shipment arrived in s. Cal in less than a week from Canada. I like that this company allows you to buy nearly any brand but has recommended packages for any amp you could name. Check for your Fender Hot Rod and you will find 3 packages rising from basic JJ to serious tube sniffer level. Guys like this have done the serious homework. I like to play, so makes me happy.
My one thing I learned so far...tubes only last approx 1 year of heavy use in a Fender Blues Jr and they do not like washboarded dirt roads. Buy a solid state backup that you can stomach. My Tech 21 Power Engine 60 is on its way, 'cause I have a preamp pedal that works....take THAT tubies!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

I don't get discouraged, but I can get overwhelmed until I'm ready to process 'the next level' of information.

As an artist, I need control over the medium I work in, be it guitar strings, pickups, tone pots, tubes, speakers, microphones, whatever. I need to control my equipment so I can make accurate decisions on what specific setup to use in order to make the particular sound I want/need. Because of that, I will always continue to learn.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

It can indeed be a rabbit hole. Several have said it, but start with V1 as that's the one that does the heavy lifting - and if it's microphonic, will cause lots of noise (learned that the hard way with my Budda Verbmaster 18W).

The other benefit of of playing with V1 is that you can more readily hear what the different tubes are doing for the amp's tone - with my Budda, I experimented with brand of AX7 and also with lower gain tubes like the AT7 and AU7.

This page really helped me dial in V1 for the Budda:

https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-corner/12ax7-comparison-current-made-tubes

I basically ended up going from the stock higher gain Sovtek to the mid-gain TungSol.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Not a topic that I find interesting in the least.
It's easy to worry too much about details. Time is better spent playing the crap out of everything.


It is easy to worry about details - that's why I do it. I need some things in my life that are easy. I can't play the crap out of anything anyway so I need to focus on specifications and technical data on tubes before I can decide which ones to purchase so I can incorporate them into an amp build intended to resurrect my interest in playing. I mean, the research and ultimate purchase are almost as gratifying as owning and using a piece of gear anyway and cost is a weighty consideration, so there is much non-playing to be done.

Honestly, I am fascinated in the differences between various tube types and will likely try all I can afford. LPB's post was mostly over my head, but I found it very informative.

Let me ask a very specific question to those who know. My amp (to be) has a Fender Brownface type preamp with an added mid control. My goal will be to add as little noise (gain?) in the preamp as possible so I can really crank the power tubes. Does it work like that? The amp has been described to me as having cathode biased power tubes driven by a long-tailed pair phase inverter. What would be a good tube to try in V1. I pretend to play Alternative Country Garage Band Psychedelic Blues Rock rather than Metal if that helps. Three-dimensional clean tones are good for me. I have pedals for everything else.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

It is easy to worry about details - that's why I do it. I need some things in my life that are easy. I can't play the crap out of anything anyway so I need to focus on specifications and technical data on tubes before I can decide which ones to purchase so I can incorporate them into an amp build intended to resurrect my interest in playing. I mean, the research and ultimate purchase are almost as gratifying as owning and using a piece of gear anyway and cost is a weighty consideration, so there is much non-playing to be done.

Honestly, I am fascinated in the differences between various tube types and will likely try all I can afford. LPB's post was mostly over my head, but I found it very informative.

Let me ask a very specific question to those who know. My amp (to be) has a Fender Brownface type preamp with an added mid control. My goal will be to add as little noise (gain?) in the preamp as possible so I can really crank the power tubes. Does it work like that? The amp has been described to me as having cathode biased power tubes driven by a long-tailed pair phase inverter. What would be a good tube to try in V1. I pretend to play Alternative Country Garage Band Psychedelic Blues Rock rather than Metal if that helps. Three-dimensional clean tones are good for me. I have pedals for everything else.

Dude.

You are getting a Fender Brown Deluxe clone and you want PEDALS for gain???

This is a cranked Brown Deluxe (Isolated guitar tracks)

 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Tubes are like pickups. It might sound ace in one amp, and meh in another.

Trying the same tubes in different amps is the best experience. Then you can nail down what their tonal "signature" is.

I find the reviews on "The tube store" to be pretty spot-on with regards to the tubes I have tried.
I have studied their website plenty and IMO they do an excellent job on their reviews.Hell I even printed their reviews out on EL 34's,6L6's,12ax7's etc..I treat the printouts as charts for my references,but that might not work for you..for my fixed bias amp I buy the same power tubes from the same vendor so they can match as closely as possible as the ones I previously purchased from them,but I always buy several sets at a time.i don't have any reputable certified amp repair shops within 80-120 miles from me,so that's why I buy from same tube vendor and several sets at a time.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

I would think you got most all of it. :)
I think what matters most to players would be, as you say, the Size/Spacing/Materiel Make Up that effects Miller Capacitance at the tube grid input.
And then the construction quality itself that deals with micro-phonics...or rather the Lack Of It. :)
The tubes themselves should not have a Sound/Tone of their own. You would have to match preamp tubes (in a specific amp) before you could even begin
to pass some kind of meaningful judgement.
I would suggest leaving Tube Rolling and capacitor Color/Material tone miracles for multi page discussions on The Gear Page ...and concentrate more on playing, practice, guitar set-up, and having 3-4-5 very different speakers on hand. Tubes and Output Transformers never seemed like a worthy time investment to me...other than making sure they are working to spec. :)
But whatever.....this will all be talked to death over and over again.
best
You sure got that right!
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Yeah if you care about your tone, you want to experiment. Some people are happy with "just plug in and play" and those of us who take the time to mess around with stuff know that tubes can make a huge difference in your tone.

I design and build tube amps and I will say in that circle of players, in general we stay away from Chinese tubes. Low quality and they are just lacking that "mojo." Also, in general, you really can't go wrong with experimenting with Tung Sol reissues, JJ and EH brand tubes for best bang-for-your-buck. Of course there are also the "cork sniffers" who won't use anything but >$100 each NOS tubes but I think that's a waste myself.
For me the Tung Sol re-issue 12ax7 in v1 in most all the tube amps I have had and have currently are just awesome! but I do like JJ's too.
 
Re: Anyone else get discouraged learning about tubes?

Dude.

You are getting a Fender Brown Deluxe clone and you want PEDALS for gain???




Not necessarily for gain although I have one OD on my board ... and a trem, a delay and an M9
 
Back
Top